>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.

>> HEY, GOOD EVENING.

FIRST WE WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THERE'S SOME REALLY BAD WEATHER OUT THERE THAT HAS COME THROUGH.

WE HOPE EVERYBODY IS SAFE.

WE UNDERSTAND THERE'S DOWNED TREES AND POWER LINES, SO EVERYBODY BE CAREFUL.

EVERYBODY BE SAFE AND GOD BLESS EVERYBODY IN THE ST. LOUIS AREA BECAUSE WEATHER IS NOTHING TO BE MESSED WITH.

SO WELCOME TO DONNYBROOK THIS EVENING.

CHARLIE DOOLEY IS ON A LITTLE BIT OUT TO PASTURE -- NO -- >> IS A BAT TICK CAL.

>> HE'S SAYING WELL DESERVED TIME OFF, SO YOU'RE STUCK WITH ME, ALVIN REID TONIGHT.

JOINING ME TONIGHT, WENDY WIESE FROM KTRS.

BILL McCLELLAN A FOUNDER FROM THE -- NOT A FOUNDER OF THE ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH.

[ LAUGHTER ] >> HE'S NOT THAT OLD.

>> HE'S OLDER THAN I THOUGHT HE WAS, MAN.

>> ANOTHER FOUNDER OF THIS SHOW, RAY HARTMANN OF RAW STORY AND ALSO OF KTRS, AND CHRISTINE BYERS, KSD 5 ON OUR SIDE IS JOINING US TONIGHT IN MY CHAIR AND IT'S LOOKING MUCH BETTER.

ALL RIGHT, WELL, THE FIFTH INDIVIDUAL FROM A FAMILY HAS DIED THAT WAS INVOLVED IN A CRASH INVOLVING THE POLICE IN A PURSUIT.

THERE ARE CALLS OUT FROM THE NAACP TO JUST REVISIT THIS WHOLE POLICE CHASE THING AND, CHRISTINE, I MEAN, WHERE ARE WE NOW?

I'VE ALWAYS KIND OF BEEN OPPOSED TO THEM, BUT DOES A TRAGIC SITUATION MAKE IT ANY DIFFERENT AS FAR AS YOU'RE CONCERNED?

>> TRAGIC SITUATIONS ALWAYS FORCE THE POLICE TO RE-EVALUATE THEIR POLICIES, FORCE THE PUBLIC TO LOOK AT THEM AS WELL, BUT I WILL SAY IN THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS AND ST. LOUIS COUNTY, WHICH ARE OUR TWO LARGEST POLICE DEPARTMENTS IN THIS AREA, THEY HAVE THE MOST RESTRICTIVE POLICIES WHEN IT COMES TO FUR SUIT.

THEY'RE ONLY -- TO PURSUIT.

THEY'RE ONLY ALLOWED TO PURSUE FOR THE MOST VIOLENT FELONIESES IN IN THIS SITUATION, THERE'S QUESTIONS AND THOSE QUESTIONS AS FAR AS I KNOW, FROM YOU, RAY HARTMANN, DAN ISOM HAS NOT BEEN VERY TRANSPARENT WITH EXPLAINING WHETHER THIS WAS A PURSUIT OR NOT.

FROM WHAT WE KNOW, THERE WERE SPIKE STRIPS USED ON THE CAR AND THE POLICE WERE NOT PURSUING THE CAR AFTER THEY HIT THE SPIKE STRIPS AND CAUSED THE ACCIDENT.

>> I THINK YOU GOT THAT FROM BILL.

>> YEAH, I THINK I WAS THE ONE THAT SAID THAT.

>> I DIDN'T SAY IT, BUT I'M INTERESTED.

>> THE FAMILY CLAIMS THEY WERE TOLD AT THE HOSPITAL THAT THERE WAS A PURSUIT WITH AN UNMARKED CAR AND THAT'S WHAT DAN ISOM HAS NOT BEEN VERY CLEAR ABOUT, THE EXACT DETAILS STWLEE SATURDAY AN INVESTIGATION CONTINUES.

>> RIGHT, AND IT'S BEEN NINE DAYS, SO ONE WOULD THINK THAT AN INVESTIGATION COULD BE CONCLUDED.

BUT MY THING ON THESE POLICE CHASES IS, I'M AGAINST THEM.

I THINK THEY'RE WRONG, BUT THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN GET AWAY FROM THEM IS IF YOU HAVE, LIKE, DRONES OR AN EYE IN THE SKY AND WHEN THE KIDS, THEY'RE ALMOST ALWAYS KIDS, WHEN THE KIDS ARE EVENTUALLY CAUGHT, THERE HAVE TO BE REAL CONSEQUENCES.

RIGHT NOW, THERE ISN'T.

THERE WERE THREE KIDS IN THE CAR THAT HIT THE SPIKES AND ENDED UP WITH, YOU KNOW, FIVE DEAD PEOPLE, AND ONE OF THE KIDS WAS RELEASED THAT NIGHT BECAUSE JUVENILE SAID, WELL, HIS PREVIOUS RECORD ISN'T SO BAD.

ONE OF THE KIDS WAS, 17 YEARS OLD, WAS HELD BY JUVENILE, AND THE THIRD THEY HAVEN'T CAUGHT YET.

IF YOU'RE NOT GOING TO CHASE, ALL THESE KIDS ARE GOING TO RUN ALL THE TIME.

I MEAN, NOBODY WILL STOP EXCEPT, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE LIKE ME, OLD PEOPLE.

BUT IF YOU'RE IN A STOLEN CAR AND THE POLICE GET BEHIND YOU, YOU'LL JUST RUN.

SO WE HAVE TO SAY IF THERE'S NO CHASES, WE HAVE TO HAVE CONSEQUENCES FOR THOSE KIDS WHEN THEY ARE CAUGHT.

>> THE ISSUE WITH STOLEN CARS IS A LOT OF TIMES THEY'RE STOLEN IN A VERY VIOLENT WAY.

THAT LEADS TO PURSUITS ALSO.

>> CARJACKING, YOU'RE SAYING.

>> BUT THIS ONE WAS NOT THAT.

THIS WAS A CAR THAT WAS STOLEN IN HERCULEANIUM AND BEST GUESS WOULD BE THE INDIVIDUALS INVOLVED PROBABLY WERE -- THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME THEY'D BROKEN THE LAW, BUT IT SEEMS TO ME WHATEVER THE CIRCUMSTANCES WERE THAT LED TO THE SITUATION, YOU WERE CHASING PEOPLE THAT STOLE A CAR.

AND THAT'S JUST NOT -- I MEAN, THAT DOESN'T SEEM RIGHT TO ME.

>> BUT THEY USED A GUN IN COMMISSION OF THE CRIME.

>> I DON'T THINK THEY CARJACKED ANYBODY, I THINK THEY JUST STOLE THE CAR.

>> WELL, THE FAMILY FEELS FORGOTTEN.

THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE TELLING ALL THE LOCAL TELEVISION STATIONS AND I'M SURE THE POST-DISPATCH, TOO, BUT THIS HAS TO STOP.

I'M JUST NOT SURE HOW.

IT IS DRONE TECHNOLOGY, YOU MENTIONED DRONE TECHNOLOGY, CHRISTINE.

CAN THEY LAUNCH A DRONE FAIRLY QUICKLY AND -- >> I MEAN, THE USE OF DRONES IN POLICE WORK IS HIGHLY CONTROVERSIAL.

>> RIGHT.

>> IT'S BEEN A DEBATE FOR YEARS AND YEARS, BUT WE DO HAVE A HELICOPTER.

THE PROBLEM IS THE HELICOPTER CAN'T BE UP 24/7, SO POLICE ARE ALSO LOOKING AT ALTERNATIVE WAYS, NEW TECHNOLOGIES, WAYS TO TRACK CARS AND YOU GET THEM LATER.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

I WOULD THINK DRONE TECHNOLOGY WOULD NOT BE AS CONTROVERSIAL AS FIVE MEMBERS OF A FAMILY -- >> THEY HAVE TO DOING.

>> RIGHT.

>> BUT THE THING IS, YOU SAID THE KEYWORDS.

GET THEM LATER.

IN 2022, THE TECHNOLOGY, ALL THE INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY AND THE TRACKING, THE CAR PINGING, THE PHONE PINGING AND THE CAR, THE FIRST THING YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT IS THE SAFETY OF THE OFFICERS AND THE SAFETY OF THE PUBLIC, INCLUDING BYSTANDERS, NOT TO MENTION WHOEVER IS BEING CHASED WHO MAY OR MAY NOT BE GUILTY, AND THE FACT IS, THE COST-BENEFIT ANALYSIS, UNLESS YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A MAJOR FELONY -- OBVIOUSLY IF SOMEBODY IS SHOOTING UP A SCHOOL AND RUNNING OFF, THAT'S A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT, BUT AS FAR AS JUST GENERALLY A CAR THEFT, THE IDEA WE SHOULD BE RISKING ALL THESE LIVES WHEN IN FACT THEY'RE ALMOST ALWAYS GOING TO GET THE BAD GUY.

I AGREE WITH BILL'S POINT ABOUT MAKING SOME PUNISHMENT, BUT THE POINT IS, THEY'RE GONNA FIND THEM.

SO THE QUESTION IS WHEN.

NOW, OBVIOUSLY IF IT'S A CARJACKING IN PROGRESS AND YOU GOT A VICTIM IN THE CAR, THAT'S DIFFERENT.

BUT FOR THE MOST PART, THESE ARE NOT -- PEOPLE GET THEIR ADRENALINE GOING AND THEY FOR AFTER THE CHASE AND IT'S -- THEY GO AFTER THE CHASE AND IT'S TOO MUCH LIKE TV.

>> I WILL SAY THIS.

I WANT TO PUSH BACK ON THE POLICE HERE.

THE POLICE ARE NOT GIVING US ENOUGH INFORMATION ABOUT THE CIRCUMSTANCES THAT LED TO THIS.

THEY'RE NOT GIVING US ENOUGH INFORMATION ABOUT WERE THEY PURSUING AT THE TIME THIS HAPPENED, WERE THEY NOT.

WE'RE GETTING ALL KINDS OF DIFFERENT INFORMATION.

WHY AREN'T THE POLICE TELLING US WHAT LED TO THIS?

>> BEFORE WE MOVE, I'LL SAY IF YOU PUT THE SPIKES IN THE ROAD, THAT MEANS SOMEBODY'S GOT TO BE RUNNING FROM SOMETHING, SO I WOULD STILL LABEL THAT AS SOME KIND OF A CHASE.

SPEAKING OF THE POLICE, WE HAVE A NEW INTIM POLICE CHIEF, THE LIEUTENANT COLONEL MARK SACK IS NOW INTERIM CHIEF SACK.

YOU KNOW THE GENTLEMAN.

WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS?

>> I DON'T KNOW THE GENTLEMAN WELL.

MY LIMITED CONTACT WITH HIM IS HE IS NOT AN OLD SCHOOL GUY.

HE LOOKS LIKE AN OLD SCHOOL GUY BECAUSE YOU SAY, HEY, HE'S OLDER AND HE'S WHITE, BUT, YOU KNOW, WHEN I MET WITH HIM, HE MADE SURE THERE WAS A P.R.

PERSON WITH HIM AND I THINK THAT HE MIGHT FIT IN VERY WELL WITH MAYOR JONES AND DAN ISOM.

HE APPARENTLY CAN GET ALONG WITH KIM GARDNER, YOU KNOW, WHICH IS A GOOD THING.

IT'S BEEN SO DYSFUNCTIONAL.

THE ONLY PROBLEM IS I WISH SOMEBODY IN THE GROUP WAS A LITTLE MORE LAW AND ORDER.

I'M SPEAKING FROM THE 20th CENTURY HERE, BUT I THINK SOMEBODY IN THE SYSTEM OUGHT TO BE MORE LAW AND ORDER ORIENTED.

>> WELL, THE ETHICAL SOCIETY OF POLICE, AND I'M NOT SURE HOW MUCH WEIGHT THE WORD "COMMENDABLE" CARRIES ANYMORE, BUT THEY WERE SAYING THAT HE HAS A COMMENDABLE RECORD, I SUPPOSE, WITH INTERNAL AFFAIRS AND SOME OF HIS COMMUNITY POLICING, BUT THAT THEY WILL KEEP AN EYE ON HIM AND HOLD HIS FEET TO THE FIRE.

>> AND THAT'S A LOT -- THAT'S, I'M GUESSING, FROM WHAT I'M HEARING -- AND AGAIN, A LOT OF IT'S WHO YOU TALK TO AND HEARSAY.

I WOULD SAY THAT THIS IS, TO SUGGEST THIS WAS NOT A POPULAR CHOICE AMONG POLICE OFFICERS, AND MAYBE IT'S BECAUSE HE WAS INVOLVED -- >> AND BOTH UNIONS.

>> CORRECT.

>> THE OTHER UNION HADN'T MADE A STATEMENT.

>> HASN'T SAID ANYTHING.

>> THE POLICE OFFICERS ASSOCIATION, I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY THERE'S A REAL PROBLEM ON THAT SIDE OF IT, AND AGAIN, I'M NOT ADVOCATING ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, BUT IF YOU'RE JUST TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE -- KIND OF THE DYSFUNCTION, THIS DIDN'T REALLY HELP, I'M GUESSING.

>> SO LIEUTENANT COLONEL MICHAEL SACK, NOW OUR INTERIM CHIEF, HE HAS A PLAY HISTORY WITH THE ST. LOUIS POLICE DEPARTMENT AND ESPECIALLY THE POLICE UNION.

THEY STRONGLY BELIEVE HE WAS BEHIND THE CREATION OF KIM GARDNER'S EXCLUSION LIST THAT DOES NOT ALLOW CERTAIN OFFICERS TO BRING CASES BASED ON CRITERIA THAT NO ONE STILL TO THIS DAY REALLY UNDERSTANDS OR KNOWS.

THAT HAS NOT BEEN A TRANSPARENT PROCESS WHATSOEVER.

SO THEY'RE HIGHLY CRITICAL OF HIM.

HE AND CHIEF HAYDEN HAVE BOTH DENIED THAT HE WAS THE ONE THAT CREATED THE LIST.

KIM GARDNER SAYS HE REQUESTED THE LIST.

THAT LEFT A BITTER TASTE IN A LOT OF THE MOUTHS OF THE RANK AND FILE.

THE POLICE UNION PRESIDENT TOLD ME RIGHT AFTER HIS APPOINTMENT, HE DOESN'T HAVE THE MOST POSITIVE REPUTATION AMONG THE RANK AND FILE, BUT A LOT OF IT HAS TO DO WITH HIS TIME IN INTERNAL AFFAIRS.

>> I DON'T THINK THE LIST IS A BAD THING.

I THINK THE PROCESS THAT THE HIS WENT THROUGH WAS TERRIBLE.

THE LACK OF DUE PROCESS WAS AN ISSUE.

THE IDEA -- SOME OF THE POLICE OFFICERS ARE JUST GOING TO BE MAD ABOUT THE LIST.

AGAIN, I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT THE GUY, BUT -- >> WELL, IT'S NOT A POPULAR CHOICE.

>> IF YOU'VE HAD A STINT IN INTERNAL AFFAIRS, IT'S A FOLLOW-UP THAT YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE VERY POPULAR WITH THE RANK AND FILE.

>> CHIEF HAYDEN SERVED IN INTERNAL AFFAIRS AND IT DIDN'T COME UP.

>> ON-CLAIRE, A -- RON CLAIRE, AN OLD FRIEND OF MINE WAS IN INTERNAL AFFAIRS.

ONE CAN SAY IF YOU'RE POPULAR WHEN YOU COME OUT OF INTERNAL AFFAIRS, MAYBE YOU DIDN'T DO YOUR JOB SO WELL.

>> I'M NOT AWARE OF ANYONE SAYING THAT ANYONE DID A GOOD JOB IN INTERNAL AFFAIRS, BUT I AM AWARE OF PEOPLE SAYING NOTHING ABOUT THE JOB SOMEONE HAS DONE IN INTERNAL AFFAIRS AND WITH COLONEL MICHAEL SACK, THERE'S SERIOUS RESENTMENT THERE.

>> I WOULD SAY, ALAN, YOU DID A COMMENDABLE JOB FILLING IN FOR CHARLIE, YOU MIGHT -- BUT I DID CALL THE MAN MARK SACK INSTEAD OF MIKE SACK, SO I GUESS I EARN THAT.

>> WHEN THE MAYOR ANNOUNCED THAT HE WAS APPOINTED, HER PRESS STAFF ONLY ALLOWED REPORTERS TO ASK FOUR QUESTIONS.

THERE ARE MORE MEDIA OUTLETS THERE THAN FOUR, SO WE DIDN'T EVEN ALL GET ONE QUESTION TO ASK.

AND MY QUESTION WAS WHAT ARE THE QUALIFICATIONS SHE'S LOOKING FOR THAT MICHAEL SACK DOESN'T ALREADY HAVE.

HE'S THE LAST FINALIST REMAINING FROM OUR FIRST SEARCH FOR HAYDEN'S REPLACEMENT AND SHE SAID SHE DIDN'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT HIS QUALIFICATIONS AND HE MIGHT VERY WELL END UP BEING OUR CHIEF OF POLICE AFTER THIS NEXT SEARCH HAPPENS.

>> THAT IMMEDIATE LEADS ME TO THE NEXT TOPIC REAL QUICK.

THERE WILL BE AN OUTSIDE SEARCH.

ARE YOU GUYS OKAY WITH THAT?

AND MY PARAMETER, IF I COULD PICK A CHIEF, THE CHIEF WOULD NOT BE FROM THIS AREA.

NOT FROM STATE.

>> BY THE WAY, I THINK IT'S COMMENDABLE SO FAR.

I'D LIKE TO COMMEND YOU.

I THINK NATIONAL SEARCH IS FINE.

I KNOW PEOPLE -- IT'S CERTAINLY GOT TO INCLUDE LOCAL CANDIDATES, BUT THERE'S NO HARM IN DOING A NATIONAL SEARCH BECAUSE YOU DO -- THIS IS A BIG JOB.

IT'S A VERY DIFFICULT JOB TO FILL WELL, AND THERE'S NO DOWN SIDE TO ME DOING A NATIONAL SEARCH.

I WILL SAY THIS.

THIS WHOLE THING HAS -- IS REALLY EXPOSING HOW BAD A STRUCTURE WE HAVE.

WHEN LOCAL CONTROL MOVED FROM THE STATE TO THE CITY, THERE SHOULD HAVE BEEN A POLICE BOARD.

NOW, ADMITTEDLY, THE ONE IN THE COUNTY IS PRETTY MUCH NOT TRANSPARENT AND -- >> IF I COULD GO BACK, RAY, TO THE NATIONAL SEARCH.

>> RIGHT.

>> AND GET AWAY FROM THE POLICE BOARD FOR A MINUTE, I'M NOT SO SURE ABOUT A NATIONAL SEARCH.

YOU'RE REINVENTING THE WHEEL ALL THE TIME.

I'VE SEEN IT ON NEWSPAPERS WHERE WE GET SOMEBODY FROM ANOTHER PAPER AND IT'S SOMEBODY THAT WE DON'T KNOW AND IT'S ALWAYS SOMEBODY WHO INTERVIEWS WELL, AND YOU KNOW, WE'VE SEEN IT IN A NUMBER OF PRIVATE PUBLIC COMPANIES IN ST. LOUIS.

YOU GET SOMEBODY AND IN THE END, IT'S JUST SOMEBODY WHO INTERVIEWED WELL, BUT WASN'T RISING WHERE HE OR SHE WAS.

SO I KIND OF LIKE THE IDEA OF YOU HAVE A KNOWN UNIVERSE OF PEOPLE.

>> I WOULD LIKE TO ADD THAT THERE WAS A NATIONAL SEARCH THAT DID GO ON BACK AT THE END OF LAST YEAR NA RESULTED IN SIX FINALISTS, FOUR OF THEM FROM OUT OF OUR AREA.

THEY HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE POLICE DEPARTMENT.

AND TWO INTERNAL CANDIDATES.

LIEUTENANT COLONEL MICHAEL SACK AND LIEUTENANT COLONEL LEAR O'TOOLE.

THE FOUR OUTSIDE CANDIDATES NEVER SHOWED UP TO TAKE THE MANAGEMENT TEST, SO THEY WERE AUTOMATICALLY DISQUALIFIED FROM THE RUNNING.

WHICH LEFT THE MAYOR'S OFFICE TWO TO CHOOSE FROM.

>> WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU ABOUT THE NATIONAL SEARCH?

THEY GET FOUR PEOPLE THAT DON'T EVEN SHOW UP.

>> I DON'T THINK THAT MEANS YOU NEVER DO A SEARCH, BUT I THINK THE BIGGER POINT -- I STARTED TO SAY AND BEING LONG-WINDED ABOUT.

I'M ALWAYS LONGWINDED, WHY SHOULD THIS BE DIFFERENT?

THE MAYOR IS THE PERSON WHO IS RESPONSIBLE.

IT SEEMS TO ME THE MAYOR OUT TO BE ABLE TO CHOOSE THE PERSON HOWEVER SHE WANTS.

>> SHE CAN USE THE PERSONNEL BOARD.

>> THE PERSONNEL BOARD STRUCTURE MAKES NO SENSE.

IF YOU HAVE A POLICE BOARD THAT'S PUBLIC AND MEETS PUBLICLY WHICH WOULD BE NICE, THAT WOULD BE COOL, BUT ABSENT THAT, IF YOU'RE GOING TO HOLD THE MAYOR RESPONSIBLE, I THINK SHE PICKS WHOEVER SHE WANTS.

>> I'LL JUST ADD THAT TWICE, BILL, I GOT, LIKE, YOU KNOW, PROMOTED AND WENT TO OTHER PAPERS IN OTHER CITIES AND I THINK I DID A COMMENDABLE JOB.

[ LAUGHTER ] >> YOU OUGHT TO BE ACCEPTED -- >> DIG YOUR WAY OUT OF THAT ONE.

>> SPEAKING OF DIGGING YOUR WAY OUT OF STUFF, RAY, BROKE GROUND ON THE NEW SEQUENCE CENTER.

88 -- CONVENTION CENTER.

$88 MILLION LATER, I WOULD SAY TO RITA DAYS, I'M HAPPY IT'S FINALLY GETTING STARTED, BUT DOWN THE LINE, I'M NOT HAPPY THAT IT'S GOING TO COST AN $88 MILLION.

>> THAT'S A RIDICULOUS STORY AND I HAVE TO TELL YOU, IT IS NOT COMMENDABLE.

RITA HEARD DAYS WAS HAVING A BATTLE TO GET AN INVESTMENT IN NORTH COUNTY, WHICH IS VERY DIFFICULT TO DO, ESPECIALLY DURING THE PAIGE ADMINISTRATION, AND THEY WERE -- NO QUESTION THERE WAS A POLITICAL BATTLE.

SO LISTEN TO -- TO READ THE MEDIA COVERAGE NOW, IT WAS ALL RITA, LIKE THERE WAS ONLY SIDE OF THIS ARGUMENT WHEN, IN FACT, THERE WAS RESISTANCE ON THE PART OF THE PAGE ADMINISTRATION TO DOING WHAT IT HAD COMMITTED IN HER VIEW TO THE LATE HAZEL ERBY TO DO.

THAT WAS A DISCUSSION.

THE IDEA THAT YOU CAN GO BACK TO THIS ARGUMENT AND THE DELAY THAT IT COST AND PROJECT THAT GOING FORWARD AS IF SHE WOULD HAVE KNOWN OR COULD HAVE PREDICTED WHETHER THE BOND MARKET WAS GOING TO GO UP OR DOWN IS NONSENSE.

I MEAN, THAT DELAY COULD HAVE SAVED $88 MILLION.

THERE'S NO REASON NOW TO GO BACK AND SAY, WELL, IF YOU HADN'T DELAYED IT, IT WOULD BE 88 MILLION.

WHAT IF THE BOND MARKET HAD GONE THE OTHER WAY, ARE YOU GOING TO GIVE HER A MEDAL FOR DELAYING IT?

THE IDEA THAT YOU CAN BLAME SOMEBODY FOR HAVING AN ARGUMENT AND SAY, LOOK WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED, GO BACK IN TIME, IS NUTS.

>> WAIT, RAY.

IF I HAVE TO BUY A HOUSE, MY HOUSE IS FALLING APART AND I HAVE TO BUY A HOUSE, AND I DELAY BUYING THE HOUSE BY TWO YEARS AND THE INTEREST RATE GOES UP, I.E., THE COST OF THE HOUSE GOES UP, THAT'S ON ME, OKAY?

>> SURE, IT IS.

>> THIS IS NOT ANALOGOUS TO THAT, BUT WHAT IF THE INTEREST RATE WENT DOWN.

>> ACTUALLY, IT IS.

>> I THOUGHT IT WAS.

>> IT'S A COMMENDABLE ANALOGY, RAY.

>> WHAT IF IT WENT DOWN?

ARE YOU SMART FOR HAVING WAITED?

>> YEAH.

>> THAT'S MY POINT.

>> NO, I WAS LUCKY MAYBE HAVING WAITED, BUT THAT'S NOT LUCK.

>> AND THIS IS WHAT THIS IS.

IT'S BAD LUCK THAT SHE DELAYED IT.

IT COULD HAVE BEEN GOOD LUCK.

>> IT'S 88 MILLION ZZ.

>> WELL, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN GOOD LUCK TO US IF IT HAD GONE DOWN.

THAT'S RIDICULOUS.

>> WELL, IT DIDN'T GO DOWN.

>> WELL, WE'RE LIKE -- IT'S JUST LUCK.

>> WE'RE GOING TO MENTION THAT THE DELAY COST US $88 MILLION.

>> YES.

>> BUT SHE DID NOT COST US $88 MILLION.

THEY WERE HAVING A LEGITIMATE ARGUMENT THAT YOU CAN -- REASONABLE PEOPLE CAN DISAGREE.

I HAPPEN TO BE ON HER SIDE BECAUSE I THINK IT'S A GOOD PROJECT.

>> BUT IN TERMS OF RESPONSIBILITY, SAM PAGE IS PART OF THIS, SO -- >> HE'S NOT RESPONSIBLE EITHER.

IT'S LUCK.

YOU CAN'T SAY THAT BECAUSE AN ARGUMENT WAS PROTRACTED, THAT THEREFORE BOTH PARTIES OR EITHER PARTY IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE BOND RATES GOING UP.

>> SO WE SHOULD JUST LOOK AT THE $88 MILLION -- >> IT'S BAD LUCK.

THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT IT WAS.

>> OKAY, BAD LUCK THAT THEY WERE HAVING A POLITICAL SPAT THAT COST US $88 MILLION, BAD LUCK.

>> I'M SURE YOU WOULD BE PRAISING THEM FOR SAVING US 88 MILLION IF IT HAD GONE DOWN.

>> WELL, INTEREST RATES WEREN'T GOING TO GO DOWN.

THEY WERE PRACTICALLY ZERO, RAY.

>> OH, SHE SHOULD HAVE THOUGHT OF THAT WHEN THEY WERE HAVING AN ARGUMENT.

>> IT WASN'T LIKE INTEREST RATES WERE 6% AND THEY WENT -- >> GOOD POINT.

SPEAKING OF MONEY.

IF WE'RE GOING TO REDUCE THE CITY BOARD OF ALDERMEN TO 14 FROM 28 AND SEEMS LIKE IT'S OUT THERE, LEWIS REED DIDN'T SHOOT IT DOWN THAT EVERYBODY'S GOING TO DOUBLE THEIR PAY.

WENDY, THE MATH DOESN'T ADD UP TO ME.

>> THE MATH DOES NOT ADD UP, AND I THINK THAT IT'S A -- IT'S A REALLY GUTSY THING TO DO.

I MEAN, IT REALLY IS BECAUSE YOU'RE REDUCING THE SIZE OF THE BOARD OF ALDERMEN.

YOU ARE ALSO ADDING THE COST OF ASSISTANTS BECAUSE OF THE REDUCTION IN THE NUMBER OF ALDERMEN, AND WHILE YOU'RE AT IT, YOU'RE GIVING YOURSELF A -- YOU'RE DOUBLING YOUR PAY.

AND AS WE'VE BEEN, YOU KNOW -- WE'VE SEEN IN EVERY SECTOR OF THE ECONOMY, ASK PEOPLE WHOSE WORKFORCE HAS BEEN REDUCED IF THOSE WHO REMAIN RECEIVED SALARY BOOSTS.

NO, ACTUALLY, THEY JUST DO A LOT MORE WORK.

GOOD LUCK.

>> I'M NOT TAM WITH ANY NEWSPAPER, NEWS ROOMS OR TV NEWS ROOMS WHERE REPORTER HAVE BEEN LAID OFF OR LET GO OR RESIGNED AND NOT REPLACED, AND AS A REWARD, THE REST OF US GET RAISES.

NEVER HAPPENS.

>> THEY WERE SAYING IT'S CUCKOO AND PROBABLY NOT GOING TO FLY.

>> I DON'T THINK IT IS.

I THINK IT'S -- >> YOU DON'T THINK IT'S CUCKOO?

>> NO, IT'S VERY OPTICS AND IF YOU WANT TO LOOK RATIONALLY, WHICH NOBODY WILL IN THIS CASE, AT WHAT CITY COUNCIL'S PAY FOR COMPARABLE WORK IN COMPARABLE MARKETS, WHICH ARGUABLY SHOULD BE RELEVANT, NO CITY WANTS TO GIVE RAISES TO ITS POLITICIANS AND I DO NOT THINK DOUBLING THEIR PAY IS A GOOD IDEA.

BUT I THINK THE ARGUMENT THAT IT MUST STAY IN PERPETUITY AT 35 GRAND, IF KANSAS CITY FOR EXAMPLE IS PAYING 70, AND THERE'S A LOT OF OTHER EXAMPLES, IT'S A LITTLE LOW, BUT AGAIN, I'M NOT ADVOCATING -- I THINK IT'S VERY -- IT MAYBE JUST AN OPENING OFFER.

I DEFINITELY DO NOT THINK IT SHOULD DOUBLE OVERNIGHT, NO.

>> MAYBE WE SHOULD JUST SAY IT'S BAD LUCK.

>> THERE YOU GO.

[ LAUGHTER ] >> IT'S BAD LUCK.

[ ALL SPEAKING AT ONCE ] >> IT WAS CERTAINLY BAD LUCK OR BAD JUDGMENT THAT I WOULD SPEAK UP FOR IT AT ALL.

>> YOU'RE GOVERNING OVER A LOT MORE PEOPLE IN KANSAS CITY THAN YOU ARE IN ST. LOUIS.

>> THAT DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT.

>> OF COURSE, IT DOES.

>> YOU DON'T DO IT PER CAPITA.

IF YOU LOOK AROUND, WHICH I HAD OPPORTUNITY TO DO, STILL AT 14, ST. LOUIS IS A LARGER CITY COUNCIL THAN MOST CITIES AND IT SURE SPEAKS TO WHY 28 WAS A NUTTY NUMBER.

I MEAN, THAT WAS -- >> PART OF THE ORIGINAL PROPOSAL WHEN THIS ALL CAME UP, GOSH, NINE, TEN YEARS AGO ALREADY, WAS TALKING ABOUT COST SAVINGS.

>> TRUE.

>> AND I DO THINK IT'S -- >> THAT WAS NINE OR TEN YEARS AGO.

>> THAT'S TRUE.

AND YOU KNOW WHAT?

IT'S BEEN BAD LUCK THAT IT'S GONE UP.

[ LAUGHTER ] >> YOU KNOW, WE HAVE TOO MANY MUNICIPALITIES, OKAY?

AND A LOT OF THEM HAVE CITY COUNCILS.

BUT WE CANNOT REFLECT THEIR PAY ON, YOU KNOW, JUST SOME GENERAL NUMBER BASED ON, YOU KNOW, LIKE MAYBE IF YOU TAKE OUT THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE YOU REPRESENT, YOU KNOW, THEY CAME IN AND SAID, OKAY, THE CITY COUNCIL PEOPLE IN, YOU KNOW, KIRKWOOD ARE GOING TO MAKE $70,000, THEY'RE LIKE, NO -- >> IT'S GENERALLY YOU WANT TO BE -- WHETHER YOU'RE IN BUSINESS OR GOVERNMENT, AND THEY ARE DIFFERENT, I MEAN, YOU WANT TO -- YOU GENERALLY IF YOU OWN A BUSINESS, YOU KEEP TRACK OF WHAT THE INDUSTRY PAYS NATIONALLY.

I MEAN, YOU WANT TO BE COMPETITIVE.

YOU DON'T WANT TO BE THE LOWEST.

YOU DON'T WANT TO SAY WE GOT THE LOWEST PAID REPORTERS IN AMERICA.

AT THE SAME TIME, THIS ISN'T ANY DIFFERENT THAN THAT.

IF YOU'RE A CITY AND OTHER PEOPLE ARE PAYING THEIR MAYORS A CERTAIN AMOUNT OR THEIR COUNCIL PEOPLE A CERTAIN AMOUNT, THE IDEA THAT THERE'S SOME VALUE IN BEING THE CHEAPEST IS NOT -- >> NO ONE IS MAKING THESE PEOPLE RUN, RAY.

>> BUT THEY CAN VOLUNTEER IF YOU WANT TO, BUT I'M JUST SAYING IF YOU WANT TO DO WHAT THEY CALL BEST PRACTICES, YOU KIND OF KEEP UP WITH WHAT OTHER FOLKS ARE DOING.

>> THAT'S WHY CEOs' PAY GOES UP SO MUCH, SO MUCH, BECAUSE THEY ALL WANT TO BE IN THE TOP THIRD.

>> DOES ANYONE KNOW THE LAST TIME THE BOARD OF ALDERMEN DID GET A RAISE?

>> I THINK IT WAS -- DON'T HOLD ME TO THIS, I THINK IT WAS EIGHT YEARS AGO.

I THINK IT WAS A WHILE BACK.

I DON'T KNOW HOW FAR 35K WENT EIGHT YEARS AGO, BUT FARTHER THAN IT DOES NOW.

WE'RE DOWN TO OUR LAST THREE.

WESLEY BELL IS GOING TO THROW THE BOOK AT PEOPLE BREAKING INTO CARS.

YOU CAN BE CHARGED WITH A FELONY IF YOU GET TO A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF MONEY.

I THINK BREAKING IN CARS SHOULD NOT BE A FELONY UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE.

CHRISTINE, YOU'RE A LAW AND ORDER LADY, HOW ABOUT YOU?

>> I AM, BUT IN THIS SITUATION, I MEAN, WHEN SOMEBODY GETS A FELONY ON THEIR RECORD, IT IS A LIFELONG SENTENCE.

IT AFFECTS EVERYTHING.

AND I BELIEVE -- BELIEVE ME, I EMPATHIZE COMPLETELY WITH VICTIMS OF CAR BREAK-INS.

I'M THE VICTIM OF A CAR BREAK-IN MYSELF, BUT IT'S A PROPERTY CRIME.

IT IS A NUISANCE.

I JUST DON'T THINK IT'S WORTHY OF A FELONY CHARGE TO DO THIS TO SOMEONE LONG-TERM, AND THEN YOU WANT TO -- YOU START PEELING THE ONION AWAY, THE HEADLINE, 22 SUSPECTS CHARGED WITH FELONIES.

IT'S A GREAT HEADLINE AND IT MAKES PEOPLE SAY, YES, THEY'RE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

BUT I GUARANTEE YOU, YOU KNOW, WE'RE GOING TO GO DOWN THE ROAD AND THESE ARE GOING TO BE PLED DOWN.

THEY'RE GOING TO BE FIRST-TIME OFFENDERS IN THERE, ALL KINDS OF THINGS, AND IT'S NOT GOING TO END UP LIKE THAT, AT LEAST I HOPE.

>> WELL, THAT'S THE SYSTEM.

FIRST OF ALL, I THINK GOOD FOR WESLEY BELL THAT HE'S PUTTING OUT THERE THAT WE'RE NOT GOING TO JUST LAY DOWN AND AS FAR AS WHAT THE LAW OUGHT TO BE, VANDALISM IN GENERAL IS A CLASS A MISDEMEANOR AND THAT'S JUST ONE NOTCH BELOW LIKE A CLASS E, I THINK IT IS, FELONY, THE LOWEST FELONY.

I THINK THAT BREAKING IN A CAR -- AND THERE'S, AS YOU SAID, FINANCIAL THRESHOLDS, AND I'M GUESSING THAT BREAKING INTO A CAR RISES SERIOUS ENOUGH TO GET TO A CLASS E FELONY.

TO YOUR POINT, I THINK MOST PEOPLE, ALMOST EVERYBODY THAT WOULD BE A FIRST OFFENDER, A KID, DOING A NONVIOLENT BREAK-IN, IS GOING TO GET IT PLED DOWN.

THEY'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE THEIR LIVES RUIN, VERY UNLIKELY.

I THINK WESLEY IS DOING THE RIGHT THING BY GETTING THE MESSAGE OUT THAT WE'RE NOT GOING TO PUT UP WITH IT.

OF COURSE, HE DIDN'T WRITE THE LAWS MAKING IT A FELONY OR MISDEERGE, BUT IT'S A SERIOUS THING IN ST. LOUIS COUNTY, PROBABLY MORE SERIOUS THAN PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT.

AND IT'S ALSO ST. CHARLES COUNTY, NOT JUST ST. LOUIS COUNTY.

THERE'S SO MUCH FOCUS ON CRIME IN THE CITY, IT'S A BIG THING AND I THINK HE'S RIGHT.

>> AGREE.

I THINK IT'S A FELONY.

>> I SAY WHEN THEY WERE MAKING THE LAW, I THINK THIS IS GOING TO ALL FALL APART WHEN THEY MAKE THE FIRST FEW ARRESTS AND YOU HAVE SOME 17-YEAR-OLD KID LOOKING AT A FELONY.

BUT I AGREE, IT WILL ALL GET PLED DOWN.

>> I FEEL LIKE THAT'S A BIT EXTREME UNTIL I GO OUT HERE AFTER THE SHOW AND MY CAR IS BROKEN -- >> MAYBE BY A TORNADO.

>> GOOD FOR YOU.

>> IT'S A STORMY NIGHT.

WE THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US TONIGHT AND LET'S MOVE ON TO THE LETTERS.

I WORKED AS A BUSY HOSPITAL NURSE FOR 20 YEARS.

IT WAS A HIGH PRESSURE, MANY TYPES LIFE AND DEATH JOB.

I WORKED THREE 12-HOUR SHIFTS PER WEEK.

IF THOUSANDS OF NURSE DO IT, SO CAN COPS.

THAT FROM JOAN WRIGHT IN COLLINSVILLE.

I WORKED FOR ST. LOUIS EMS FROM 1984 TO 1989.

FOR THE LAST TWO YEARS, WE WERE FORCED TO WORK 12-HOUR SHIFTS.

THE REASONING BEHIND IT WAS BECAUSE EVERYBODY ELSE WAS DOING IT.

WE LOST A LOT OF GREAT, HIGHLY SKILLED PARAMEDICS.

THAT FROM MIKE GRADY IN THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS.

YOU CAN WRITE IT AT DONNYBROOK CARE OF NINE PBS, 3655 OLIVE STREET, ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 63108.

SEND US A TWEET TO #DONNYBROOKSTL, AND AN EMAIL TO DONNYBROOK@ -- AND IT WENT AWAY, SO I'M SORRY.

YOU CAN GO TO YOUR FAVORITE PODCAST SPOT AND FIND US THERE.

THANK YOU, CHRISTINE BYERS, FOR SITTING IN WITH US TODAY AND WENDY AND BILL ARE GOING TO BE DISCUSSING EARLY EDUCATION ON NEXT UP.

I HOPE I DID A COMMENDABLE JOB.

I HOPE THIS WAS A COMMENDABLE SHOW.

>> WE HAVE TO BE AVAILABLE.

>> YES, YES, REAL QUICK.

YOU CAN GET -- YES, ALL RIGHT.

WE STILL GOT SOME TICKETS LEFT.

ALL RIGHT, THERE WE GO.

>> MAKE THE CALL.

>> JUNE THE 9th, BE THERE.

>> NINE PBS.ORG.