Donnybrook Next Up: May 18, 2023

>> BIG CRIME SUMMIT IN ST. LOUIS YESTERDAY.

WE'RE GOING TO DISCUSS IT ON THIS EDITION OF "NEXT UP."

CHARLIE BRENNAN AND ALVIN REID JOINED BY LES STURMAN JOINS FROM A CITIZENS FROM GREATER DOWNTOWN ST. LOUIS.

WELCOME BACK.

WE'RE JOINED BY RICHARD ROSENFELD.

PROFESSOR EMERITUS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MISSOURI ST. LOUIS, CRIMINOLOGIST.

YOU LAST WEEK RELEASED A WHITE PAPER THAT WAS PRODUCED IN PARTNERSHIP WITH THE GREATER ST. LOUIS INC. AND THE REGIONAL BUSINESS COUNCIL.

YOU SAID THAT CRIME IS THE BIGGEST DISAPPOINTMENT AMONG PEOPLE IN THE GREATER ST. LOUIS AREA.

IT'S 20% OR SO OF INDIVIDUALS IN OUR AREA FEEL CONFIDENT THAT THEIR LEADERS ARE DOING THE RIGHT THING WHEN IT COMES TO CRIME.

IT'S ALSO HURTING US WHEN IT COMES TO ATTRACTING BUSINESSES.

WE RANK NUMBER FOUR WHEN IT COMES TO HOMICIDES IN THIS COUNTRY.

OF THE HOMICIDES HERE, 65% ARE IN THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS.

THAT'S WHY WE HAD THIS SUMMIT YESTERDAY.

TELL US ABOUT THE SUMMIT.

MAY BE YOU CAN GIVE US AN EXECUTIVE SUMMARY.

>> WELL, THE SUMMIT LED OFF WITH A SUMMARY THAT I GAVE.

THE EVIDENCE PRESENTED IN THAT WHITE PAPER.

THERE WERE CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE SUMMIT FROM A REALLY DIVERSE GROUP OF PEOPLE.

THERE WERE HEALTH PROFESSIONALS WHO TALKED ABOUT THE HEALTH CONSEQUENCES OF HIGH LEVELS OF VIOLENT CRIME.

THEY HAD BJC WAS ONE OF THE EARLY SPEAKERS.

POLICE CHIEFS FROM AROUND THE REGION MADE THEIR CONTRIBUTIONS, ELECTED OFFICIALS CONTRIBUTED.

THE KEYNOTE WAS GIVEN BY THOMAS APT WHO'S A CRIMINOLOGIST AND FORMER PROSECUTOR OF NEW YORK AND CURRENTLY RUN VIOLENCE REDUCTION CENTER AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND.

AS WRITTEN A BOOK CALLED "BLEEDING OUT" IT SEEMS MOST OF THE PEOPLE AT THE SUMMIT YESTERDAY CERTAINLY HEARD ABOUT IT AND MANY READ.

WE'LL TALK ABOUT WHAT THE SUMMIT ACCOMPLISHED ABOUT OR WHAT IT DIDN'T.

MY SENSE IS THAT IT CAME OFF BETTER THAN I MIGHT HAVE EXPECTED.

IN THE FOLLOWING WAY.

THERE WAS AGREEMENT REACHED BY THE ELECTED OFFICIALS THAT THEY WOULD COMMIT THEMSELVES TO A REGION-WIDE VIOLENCE REDUCTION STRATEGY.

MODELED OFF SOME OF THE PROGRAMS DISCUSSED IN APT'S BOOK AND IMPLEMENTED ELSEWHERE.

I DIDN'T EXPECT THE ELECTED OFFICIALS TO THAT IF WE WERE QUICKLY CONCLUDE THAT THEY WANTED TO MAKE A JOINT COMMITMENT.

WE'LL HAVE PROOF OF THE PUDDING IS IN THE EATING.

WE'LL SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

>> YOU LIVE DOWNTOWN.

I KNOW THAT YOU'RE WORKING ON THESE ISSUES WITH CITY OFFICIALS.

>> I WAS THERE.

>> DID YOU COME AWAY THINKING THAT THIS WILL HELP WITH THE PROBLEMS WE HAVE IN DOWNTOWN ST. LOUIS?

>> WELL, NOT REALLY.

I THINK THE PROBLEM -- WE CAN TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE TOPICS DISCUSSED AT THE SUMMIT.

DR. ROSENFELD'S PRESENTATION.

MUCH OF WHAT WAS TALKED ABOUT WERE TRIKE TO REDUCE HOMICIDES.

THE PROBLEMS WE HAVE DOWNTOWN IS DIFFERENT.

WE HAVE SOME TARGETED VIOLENCE DOWNTOWN.

LAST YEAR WE HAD 12 HOMICIDES AND WE HAVE FOUR OR FIVE SO FAR THIS YEAR.

I WAS SURPRISED TO SEE DR. ROSENFELD PUT UP A MAP OF THE NEIGHBOR WHERE THE MOST VIOLENT CRIME OCCURRED.

ONE OF WHICH WAS DOWNTOWN.

YOU COULD NOT SAY THAT 10 OR 15 OR 20 YEARS AGO.

DOWNTOWN USED TO BE ONE OF THE SAFEST PLACE IN THE REGION.

MUCH OF WHAT WE SEE DOWNTOWN LIKE WE SAW LAST COUPLE OF WEEKENDS ARE PARTIES AND GATHERINGS, GETTING OUT OF HAND.

PEOPLE WITH A LOT OF GUNS.

WE SEE LOT OF SPONTANEOUS OPPORTUNISTIC VIOLENCE.

IF WE DON'T DEAL WITH THIS, IT'S GOING TO BE A MASS CASUALTY EVENT AT SOME POINT FROM THE CROWDS.

OTHER THING THAT I SEE DOWNTOWN IS REALLY TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF UNREPORTED CRIME, INCLUDING THINGS LIKE ASSAULTS BECAUSE DIFFICULTY GETTING THROUGH TO 911.

THE FACT THAT POLICE OFTEN ARRIVE LATE.

I'M NOT A CRIMINOLOGIST.

IT'S ONLY ONE OF THOSE AT THE TABLE HERE.

I KNOW WHAT I SEE.

>> ONE OF THE PROBLEMS IS THE 911 SYSTEM IS FAULTY.

SOMETIMES PEOPLE WILL CALL.

LIKE MY WIFE DID FROM DOWNTOWN ABOUT ONE YEAR AGO.

SHE WAS PUT ON HOLD FOR 35 MINUTES AND NO ONE TAKEN HER CALL TO REPORT THE ASSAULT.

PROFESSOR ROSENFELD, WHEN IT COMES TO ASSAULT, THIS REGION IS THE WORSE.

>> ACTUALLY, IT ISN'T ONE OF THE WORSE.

AGGRAVATED ASSAULT, VERY SERIOUS BUT NON-FATAL ASSAULT.

WE'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF METROPOLITANS WITH RESPECT TO AGGRAVATED ASSAULT.

IT'S HOMICIDES, FATAL ASSAULTS WHERE WE RANK CLOSE TO THE TOP >> IS IT POSSIBLE THAT PEOPLE WERE ANSWERING 911 IN AN EXDISHES MANNER, THE NUMBER WOULD BE HIGHER?

>> YES.

WE HAVE GOOD COUNT OF HOMICIDES.

OUR COUNT OF OTHER CRIMES THAT RELY PRIMARILY ON PEOPLE REPORTING THE CRIME TO THE POLICE IS PRONE TO ERROR.

PEOPLE CAN'T GET TO 911 OR CHOOSE NOT TO REPORT THE CRIME.

>> WE SAW THE EVENTS OF THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKENDS WHERE BIG BRAWLS BROKE OUT.

PEOPLE WERE BEING ASSAULTED.

NOT ONE ARREST WAS MADE.

THERE WAS NO POLICE REPORT OF AN ASSAULT.

IT WAS NOT STATISTICALLY REPORTED.

I HAVE TO QUESTION SOME OF THOSE NUMBER.

TO ME IT'S COUNTERINTUITIVE, YOU HAVE HUGE INCREASE IN HOMICIDES WHILE OTHER FORMS OF VIOLENCE, THE TREND IS RELATIVELY FLAT.

>> LET'S MENTION THE MAP THAT YOU HAVE SHOWING WHERE THE CRIME WAS.

>> WE KNOW THIS.

MOST OF IT IS IN NORTH SIDE BLACK NEIGHBORHOODS.

THE REGION CAN TALK ABOUT ADDRESSING IT, BUT REALLY, THAT'S WHERE THE MOST OF THE PROBLEM IS, WHY NOT JUST ADDRESS WHERE THE PROBLEM IS?

>> I THINK IN THE FIRST INSTANCE THAT'S WHERE THE PROBLEM WILL BE ADDRESSED.

IT SHOULD BE.

YOU'RE RIGHT, CRIME, SERIOUS VIOLENT CRIME IS HEAVILY CONCENTRATED IN RELATIVELY SMALL NUMBER, NOT MOST NEIGHBORHOODS ON THE NORTH SIDE OF ST. LOUIS, BUT RELATIVELY SMALL NUMBER.

NOT EXCLUSIVELY SO.

CRIMES IN PARTS OF DUTCHTOWN IS QUITE ELEVATED.

IN PARTS OF NORTH COUNTY, CRIME IS ELEVATED.

IN PARTS OF ST. CLAIRE COUNTY, CRIME IS -- SERIOUS VIOLENCE IS ELEVATED.

THAT'S WHERE I THINK A REGIONAL COMMITMENT REALLY DOES MAKE SENSE.

CERTAINLY, ST. LOUIS CITY AND ST. LOUIS COUNTY HAVE TO COLLABORATE.

THEY SHARE INTELLIGENCE ALL THE TIME ABOUT INDIVIDUAL CASES.

WHAT THEY DON'T DO ENOUGH OF, AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED, COLLABORATE ON PROGRAMS TO REDUCE CRIME.

I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE EFFORTS, THOMAS APT HAS BEEN PROPOSED THAT KIND OF INTERJURISDICTION COLLABORATION.

IF HE AND HIS CREW COME BACK TO ASSIST AND IMPLEMENTING THE KINDS OF PROGRAMS THEY THINKS WILL WORK, I'M CERTAIN HE'S GOING TO WANT THAT KIND OF COMPLIMENT.

>> THIS WAS NOT HIS FIRST VISIT TO ST. LOUIS.

HE WAS HERE THREE OR FOUR YEARS AGO.

WE HAD HIM OUT AT UMSL.

I GAVE A SUMMIT WE HAD 1220 OLIVE.

THE THEN POLICE CHIEF WAS THERE AND PRESIDENTIAL BOARD OF ALDERMAN AND OTHER.

THEN IN THE LEADERS WENT WITH ANOTHER GROUP AND NOT HIS FOCUS DETERRENCE POSSIBLE.

IS IT POSSIBLE EVERYBODY AGREEING, THIS WEEK BUT NOTHING WILL HAPPEN?

>> CERTAINLY, IT'S POSSIBLE.

THERE'S NO GUARANTEE THAT THE FOLLOW-UP TO YESTERDAY'S SUMMIT IS GOING TO DIFFER FROM THE ABSENCE OF FOLLOW-UP THAT WE HAVE SEEN TIME AND AGAIN IN ST. LOUIS.

NOT SIMPLY WITH RESPECT TO CRIME BUT WITH RESPECT TO LOTS OF ISSUES.

WHY AM I HOPEFUL, LITTLE MORE HOPEFUL NOW THAN I HAVE BEEN IN THE PAST?

>> THAT WAS MY QUESTION.

[ LAUGHTER ] >> I'M HOPEFUL BECAUSE WILL IT AT LEAST BE A SECOND PART TO THE VIOLENCE REDUCTION EFFORT.

THE SECOND PART WILL BE WHEN APT AND HIS COLLEAGUES COME TO TOWN, I'LL WORK WITH THEM, TO BEGIN IMPLEMENTING THE PROGRAMS HE'S FOUND AND OTHERS FOUND ARE EFFECTIVE.

THERE'S NO GUARANTEE AFTER THAT THE IMPLEMENTATION WILL BE SUSTAINED OVER TIME.

WE'LL HAVE TO SEE.

I'LL DO WHAT I CAN.

>> ONE OF THE ISSUES, OF COURSE, THE HOST OF THE GATHERING YESTERDAY WAS THE EAST, GATEWAY COUNCIL -- >> YOU USED TO BE IN CHARGE OF IT FOR MANY YEARS.

>> THE PART OF THE PROBLEM, NOT ONLY DEALING WITH CRIME, THERE'S REALLY NO REGIONAL PLATFORM TO TACKLE THOSE KINDS OF PROBLEMS.

EAST WEST GATEWAY IS A VOLUNTARY ASSOCIATION OF LOCAL GOVERNMENTS.

OFTENTIMES, YOU HAVE MEETING LIKE THIS AND EVERYBODY NODS AND AGREES AND SAYS ALL THE RIGHT THINGS AND USE COLLABORATION.

WHEN THE TIMES TO IMPLEMENT SOMETHING THAT'S GOING TO COST THEM SOMETHING, IT KIND OF GOES BACK TO ALVIN'S POINT, WHY IS THIS A REGIONAL PROBLEM?

ONE OF THE REASONS IT'S A REGIONAL PROBLEMMING, MANY OF THE PEOPLE THAT ARE COMMITTING THESE ACTS ARE NOT FROM THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS.

THE MAYOR QUOTED A STATISTIC THAT ONLY HALF OF THE PEOPLE IN THE CITY JAIL FROM FROM THE CITY WE KNOW THAT VIRTUALLY EVERYBODY COMMITTING CRIMES DOWNTOWN ARE FROM ILLINOIS, NORTH COUNTY, FROM ALL OVER THE PLACE.

IT'S CLEARLY A REGIONAL PROBLEM.

WE LACK A PLATFORM TO REALLY CAUSE ACTION ON SOMETHING LIKE THIS.

>> WHEN YOU SAY A REGIONAL PLATFORM -- I'M GOING TO GO BACK TO SOMETHING ELSE YOU SAID.

YOU SAID WHEN IT COMES TIME TO ACCOST, YOU'RE NOT TALKING FINANCIAL, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT POLITICAL ALSO?

>> AND MONEY.

>> MONEY IS A BIG ISSUE.

THE POLICE OFFICERS UNION BRINGS IT UP.

THEY SAY THAT THE PATROL BUDGET FROM $73 MILLION TO $28 MILLION.

NUMBER OF OFFICERS HAVE GONE FROM 800 TO 600.

>> LATTER IS CLOSER TO THE TRUTH.

I WOULD QUESTION THE FORMER.

TWO THIRDS REDUCTION IN THE BUDGET.

>> YEAH.

>> THAT REQUIRES SOME SCRUTINY.

>> MAJOR RYAN COUSINS, WHEN HE HAD PRESS CONFERENCE A WEEK AGO, HE SAID THEY WERE SHORT ON OFFICERS.

THEY SENT SOME TO CHEROKEE.

IN PUBLISHED REPORTS TODAY, CHIEF ROBERT TRACY SAID THE SAME THING.

WELL, THAT'S WHAT HE CAME TO TOWN WITH.

THAT'S WHAT HE GOT TO DEAL WITH.

WE DEFINITELY HAVE FEWER COMMISSIONED OFFICERS.

IT SEEMS AS IF WE HAVE FEWER OFFICERS ON THE STREET NOW.

>> THAT'S SOMETHING WE HAVE NOTICED DOWNTOWN.

DOWNTOWN CAPTAIN AND RANK AND FILE TALKED TO US ABOUT THAT ALL THE TIME.

THEY CAN PATROL, AS LONG AS THE 911 CALLS ARE NOT COMING IN.

IF IT COMES IN ON THE NORTH PART OF THE FOURTH DISTRICT, THOSE OFFICERS DISAPPEAR.

NOTHING ELSE IS GOING ON.

THEY CAN GO ON PATROL.

THAT'S FEWER AND FEWER.

>> IF I MAY.

DOWNTOWN BUSINESSES, PERHAPS YOUR ORGANIZATION AS WELL, HAVE HIRED PRIVATE SECURITY TO SUPPLEMENT CITY POLICE.

HOW IS THAT WORKING OUT?

IS THAT HELPFUL?

>> I'M NOT A FAN OF THE PRIVATE SECURITY.

THERE'S WHOLE BUNCH OF REASONS WHY.

IN PART BECAUSE, THEY EMPHASIZE VISIBILITY.

I SEE IT.

I CAN SEE IT WITH MY OWN EYES.

VISIBILITY DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING TO LOT OF FOLKS THAT ARE COMMITTING THESE ACTS.

I HAVE NOT SEEN THE SAME PRIVATE SECURITY FOLKS GETTING OUT OF THEIR CARS, INTERVENING IN AN INCIDENT.

THEY CALL THE COPS.

THEY CALL THE REAL COPS.

I KNOW THAT BUSINESSES DOWNTOWN TRYING TO PUT TOGETHER ANOTHER PROPOSAL TO PRODUCE MORE -- TO TAKE A DIFFERENT APPROACH USING MORE CITY COPS, WHICH MAY BE EFFECTIVE.

I'M NOT A FAN OF THE PRIVATE SECURITY.

>> I'M GOING TO USE AN EXAMPLE.

THE FIRST TIME I HAD IT EXPLAINED TO ME IN MEMPHIS.

DOWNTOWN HOTELS.

THERE'S POLICE EVERYWHERE.

TWO OR THREE POLICE ON EVERY CORNER.

I ASK, ARE THEY BEING PAID OVERTIME.

IT WAS EXPLAINED THIS WAS LIKE AN ENTERTAINMENT DISTRICT POLICE AND THAT THE POLICE OFFICER YOU WERE SEEING WERE NOT ALL MEMPHIS POLICE OFFICERS.

THEY WERE ALL FROM AROUND THE REGION.

IT WAS A CHANCE TO WORK AND BE PAID.

THERE'S SO MANY POLICE OFFICERS THAT IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THAT KIND OF SQUASHES THINGS BEFORE IT GETS OUT OF CONTROL.

LIKE IT SEEMS TO SOME WEEKENDS HERE IN ST. LOUIS.

ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THAT THING?

>> I BEEN AROUND BILL STREET IN MEMPHIS.

I EXPERIENCED THE SAME THING, LOT OF COPS AROUND.

YOU RAISE AN INTERESTING POINT.

IF ONE IS SERIOUS ABOUT A REGIONAL APPROACH TO OUR CRIME PROBLEM AND TO THE PROBLEMS DOWNTOWN IN PARTICULAR, IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO ASK WHETHER POLICE OFFICERS FROM OUTLYING DEPARTMENTS MIGHT PROVIDE OFFICERS TO SUPPLEMENT THE OFFICERS FROM THE CITY POLICE DEPARTMENT.

ESPECIALLY THE DOWNTOWN AREA.

>> I DON'T KNOW WHO WILL PAY THEM.

IT'S EASY FOR ME TO SPEND PEOPLE'S MONEY, PRINT IT.

>> WE DO ALREADY SEE THAT IF YOU GO TO A CARDINALS GAME AND COPS ARE HELPING ACROSS THE STREET.

MANY FROM ST. LOUIS COUNTY OR COUNTY DEPARTMENT.

I SAY THAT DOWNTOWN, AGAIN, DOWNTOWN IS A VERY DIFFERENT ENVIRONMENT.

IT'S COMPLICATED BECAUSE YOU'VE GOT CONVENTIONS, SPORTING EVENTS, RESIDENTIAL, RETAIL, RESTAURANTS, OFFICES.

IT'S A COMPLICATED ENVIRONMENT TO WORK IN.

IT REQUIRES A LOT OF COOPERATION TO MAKE ALL THIS WORK TOGETHER.

CERTAINLY, MORE POLICE PREFERENCE WOULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

COMMONLY KNOWN AS PROBLEM PROPERTIES THAT ARE ATTRACTERS FOR PEOPLE THAT CREATE -- THAT ARE DISORDERLY AND CREATE SOME OF THIS VIOLENCE.

THE CITY HAS REGULATORY ABILITY TO DEAL WITH THIS.

THEY NEED THE WILL TO ACT.

>> YOU HAVE A FIVE-POINT PLAN, TAKES A LOOK AT PROBLEM PROPERTIES.

TAKES A LOOK AT THE HOMELESS AND THE STREETS AND THE LIQUOR REGULATIONS.

THERE'S A FIFTH AREA AND TRAFFIC ENFORCEMENT.

HAS ANY ELECTED OFFICIAL EMBRACED YOUR FIVE POINTS?

>> I THINK WE'VE HAD COUPLE OF DOWNTOWN ALDERMAN EMBRACE IT.

>> HOW ABOUT YOUR WHITE PAPER.

WHAT DO YOU ASK FOR?

>> WE WERE TALKING EARLIER ABOUT THE ABSENCE OF A REGIONAL PLATFORM FOR THAT WOULD COORDINATE THE COLLABORATION EVERYONE SEEMS TO WANT.

IN THE WHITE PAPER, IT IS PROPOSED THAT A REGION WIDE OFFICE OF VIOLENCE PREVENTION BE ESTABLISHED.

THE CITY HAS SUCH AN OFFICE SO DO OTHER JURISDICTIONS IN OUR METRO AREA.

A REGION WIDE OFFICE VIOLENCE PREVENTION THAT RESOURCED AND HAD AN ADVISORY GROUP INCLUDING BUSINESS OWNERS, RESIDENTS FROM ALL DIFFERENT WALKS OF LIFE.

STRIKES ME AS AT LEAST, THE SEEDS OF PLATFORM THAT COULD COORDINATOR A -- COORDINATE A VARIETY OF VIOLENCE REDUCTION INITIATIVE.

THAT IS A RECOMMENDATION OF THE WHITE PAPER.

>> IS THERE ANYTHING YOU LEARNED YESTERDAY?

>> I WAS IMPRESSED.

WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THIS EARLIER, I WAS IMPRESSED BY THE HEALTHCARE PROFESSIONAL'S PRESENTATIONS.

FROM THE HEAD OF BJC AND OTHER PRESENTATIONS.

THESE ARE CLEARLY DEDICATED, HIGHLY MOTIVATED PEOPLE.

IF THERE WAS A COMMON MESSAGE, IT'S THAT THE VIOLENCE THAT WE EXPERIENCED IN THIS REGION IS MOST DIRECTLY EXPERIENCED BY THE DIRECT VICTIMS.

OTHERS -- ONE OF THE POINTS MADE WAS CHILDREN WHO ARE SUBJECTED TO THOSE KINDS OF TRAUMATIC EXPERIENCES OVER AND OVER AGAIN, WHEN THEY'RE YOUNG, MAY NEVER RECOVER.

THAT WAS EFFECTIVE.

YES, I DID LEARN FROM THAT PRESENTATION.

>> ANYTHING STAND OUT FOR YOU?

>> YES, CERTAINLY THE SAME.

WE HAD THE SAME IMPRESSIONS THERE.

THERE'S SO MUCH TALKED ABOUT, SORT OF THE PRECURSORS TO CRIME AND VIOLENCE AND POVERTY AND HOMELESSNESS AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

I THINK THE CONCLUSION THAT THE EXPERTS BROUGHT TO US THAT VIOLENCE BEGOTS POVERTY.

THE MULTIGENERATIONAL TRAUMA THAT'S INTRODUCED IN THE COMMUNITY CREATES MORE POVERTY.

IF WE DON'T INTERRUPT THAT CYCLE, YOU CAN'T DO ONE THING OR THE OTHER.

YOU GOT TO INTERRUPT THAT CYCLE OF VIOLENCE, INCLUDING WITH GREATER ENFORCEMENT.

>> ONE OF THE PROBLEMS, WHICH IS SUBJECT FROM LOT OF RESEARCH, THE HUMAN BRAIN WHEN IT'S SUFFERING FROM ANXIETY AND TRAUMA, CANNOT LEARN.

THE BRAIN SWITCHES FUNCTIONS.

IT CAN'T PICK UP THINGS TO REMEMBER WHEN IT'S IN THIS SURVIVAL MODE.

IF YOU GROW UP IN A NEIGHBORHOOD WHERE YOU'RE ALWAYS WORRIED ABOUT YOUR OWN SAFETY, YOU'RE LESS LIKELY TO HAVE EDUCATIONAL OBTAINMENT.

YOUR STUDY SHOWS THAT EACH HOMICIDE CAN COST THE REGION BETWEEN 13 AND $23 MILLION.

>> IT'S COSTLY IN SO MANY WAYS, BEYOND THE DOLLAR AMOUNTS ATTACHED TO MEDICAL CARE AND SO ON.

YEAH, I THINK A MAJOR THEME YESTERDAY WAS THE DEGREE TO WHICH POVERTY AND VIOLENCE FEED ONE ANOTHER.

A CONVENTIONAL UNDERSTANDING IS THAT IMPOVERISHED AREAS, GENERATE CONDITIONS THAT LEAD OVIOLENCE.

THAT'S TRUE.

WHAT IS ALSO TRUE IS THAT HIGH LEVELS OF VIOLENCE EXACERBATE AND SOLIDIFY POVERTY IN A NEIGHBORHOOD.

A NEIGHBORHOOD WITH HIGH LEVELS OF VIOLENCE LOSES POPULATION.

THE PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THE FIRST INSTANCE WHO LEAVE ARE THE PEOPLE WITH BETTER PROSPECT.

THEY LEAVE BEHIND MORE IMPOVERISHED NEIGHBORHOOD.

A NEIGHBORHOOD WITH A HIGH LEVEL OF VIOLENCE DOES NOT ATTRACT DEVELOPMENT.

THAT WAS A MAJOR POINT THAT APT MADE AND OTHERS DID AS WELL.

OF COURSE, WE HAVE TO KEEP OUR EYE ON THE EIGHT BALL AND REDUCE POVERTY IN ORDER TO REDUCE VIOLENCE.

IN THE FIRST INSTANCE, WE HAVE TO BRING DOWN LEVELS OF VIOLENCE SOLIDARITY THAT COMMUNITIES ARE NOT CONTINUALLY EMPTIED OUT AND BECOME MORE IMPOINT OPOINT OF IM-- IMPOVER ISHED.

>> ANYBODY DOING A JOB WE CAN EMULATE THAT'S NEAR OUR SIZE?

>> THERE ARE SEVERAL CITIES THAT SEEM TO HAVE BETTER HALL ON THEIR CRIME PROBLEM THAN WE DO.

I WOULD POINT TO DALLAS.

THEY ARE CONSIDERABLY LARGER, THEIR VIOLENT CRIME REMAINS A PROBLEM.

IT'S NOT AT THE ACUTE CRISIS LEVEL THAT IT IS SO OFTEN IN ST. LOUIS.

THERE'S A VERY EFFECTIVE POLICE CHIEF IN DALLAS WHO MAKES STRONG USE OF EVIDENCE-INFORMED POLICIES AND STRATEGIES IN THE POLICING THAT IS DONE THERE.

THAT SEEMSES TO REALLY PAID OFF.

APT AND HIS GROUP WORKED WITH BOSTON AND KNOXVILLE AND WE'LL HAVE TO SEE AS THOSE PROGRAMS GET IMPLEMENTED IN THOSE PLACES.

>> I THINK ONE OF THE BIGGER PROBLEMS IS BRINGING SOME OF THESE PROGRAMS TO SCALE.

SO MANY SMALL DEMOCRAT VACATIONS -- DEMONS TRATIONS AND WE HAVE TO CREATE A PROGRAMMATIC FRAMEWORK THAT CAN BE SCALED UP AND THROUGH SOME REGIONAL PLATFORM.

I THINK THAT'S KEY TO REALLY CHANGING THINGS.

NOT SOME OF THESE HIGH PROFILE DEMONSTRATIONS THAT PEOPLE DO.

>> CAN I ASK, LAST TIME YOU WERE ON THE PROGRAM, YOUR FAMILY WAS ENCOURAGING YOU TO MOVE OUT OF DOWNTOWN ST. LOUIS?

WHAT'S THE LATEST THERE?

>> THEY CONTINUE TO ENCOURAGE US.

MY KIDS CAN'T FIGURE OUT WHAT WE'RE DOING IN DOWNTOWN EVERY TIME THERE'S A HEADLINE.

MOM AND DAD IN THEIR 70s LIVING DOWNTOWN WITH THIS CHAOS AND MAYHEM.

IT'S AN ONGOING DISCUSSION.

IT'S REALLY TWO SIDES OF THE COIN.

WE LOVE LIVING DOWNTOWN.

THERE ARE SO MANY AMENITIES AND OPPORTUNITIES.

MY WIFE AND I, PARTICULARLY IN THE PANDEMIC, WALKING WAS OUR MAJOR RECREATION.

WALKING DOWN TO THE ARCH EVERYDAY.

EVERYTHING IS THERE WITHIN WALKING DISTANCE.

BEAUTIFUL DAY LIKE TODAY, WE WERE EATING OUTSIDE AT A NICE RESTAURANT.

WE LOVE THAT.

WE'RE IN BED AT NIGHT LISTENING TO GUNSHOTS, IT'S A DIFFERENCE IMPRESSION.

>> I ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO GO TO TWITTER AND GET YOUR FIVE POINT PLAN FOR DOWNTOWN ST. LOUIS.

I KNOW GREATER ST. LOUIS INC. WEBSITE WE CAN GET YOUR 30 PLUS PAGE WHITE PAPER ON CRIME IN THE REGION.

>> CORRECT.

[ INDISCERNIBLE ] >> THERE'S AN EXECUTIVE SUMMARY AT THE FRONT.

IT'S MAY BE A PAGE AND A HALF.

>> MR. ROSENFELD, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

THANKS EVERYBODY.

SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEK.

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