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>> Thank you so much for joining us for this edition of Donny Brook.

It's our first in April and we're just two weeks away from Donnie Bash.

We'll give you details before the program is over about how you can join us for our annual fundraiser.

Well, we're going to dissect this week's news in St.

Louis.

But first, let's meet the panelists.

Starting with the media veteran herself, Wendy Whis, one of our founders from the Post Dispatch, Bill Mlelen from St.

Louis magazine, as well as the 314 podcast and her daily newsletter.

Let's welcome Sarah Fensky.

And from the St.

Louis American and the host for backto back to backto back weeks Alvin Reed.

Thank you very much.

>> Oh, it was very fun.

It was very fun.

>> Well, I enjoyed last week's show and I will catch up on all of them before uh next week.

Uh Bill, we're going to start with you.

I think it's major news out of Fesus because earlier this year or maybe late last year, St.

Charles said, "Thanks, but no thanks to a huge data center and it even enacted a one-year moratorum."

So, the developers of this $6 billion data center went to Fesus and they got approved this week.

Fesus said, "Sure, we'll take it along with the money.

It could be $1.3 billion over 25 years.

We'll see if that pans out."

Uh, the people in the auditorium seem to be against it.

So much so that the developers and Mayor Sam Richards had to exit through the back door.

But overall, is this maybe the first of many successes for the data center industry?

>> I I don't know.

But I was certainly on the side of the people with the pitchforks, you know, and yelling no.

I I just don't trust the political class on this.

you know, these the mayor and his cohorts wouldn't even say who the data center is for and and when you keep that kind of information from the people and you just say trust us, I don't see there where there could be any trust and the argument that they made later to the press that well if we don't take it, it could be put right next to us and we wouldn't get any money.

I'm not sure if that's true.

I mean, I I just don't trust those politicians at all on this.

>> I think that we're going through a very difficult time as a region from an economic standpoint.

I think we're going to see a lot more of this.

I I think as as people become more used to the idea, you know, the first time we were hearing about it, it was, you know what, and I I think that it's I mean, I think it's going to be a very long I think it's gonna be a very long road.

Kudos to David Carson of the Post Dispatch.

Uh the photographs that he captured, one especially with one of the pitchfork holders, the uh the residents, she was wearing a t-shirt that said smile and she was ready to like her her face was melting off.

She was so angry.

>> David's a wonderful.

>> It was fantastic.

It was absolutely fantastic.

But no, I >> Bob Con and the other fellows >> and I I am trying to be optimistic about the reason that was given because it could still be placed in an adjacent county.

They would have no control over it.

I think there's going to be a lot of fighting for this kind of stuff.

>> Well, I Okay, couple things.

One, hearken back to the Arkansas days where they have dry counties and the liquor store would be on the border of the next county and then the people in that county said like, "Good, we get the liquor without all the headache."

So, I'm not really buying the they could have built it next door.

I mean, there's got to be some kind of regulation, county, state, federal, as far as all that is concerned.

Whatever happened to the, you know, I think that the people of Fesus don't want this.

And I don't know if you could take a true poll or whatever, but it seemed to me that these, this was more than just vocal citizens.

It seemed like the populace really did want this, but the politicians, the people elected to office wanted the money.

Now, make your case what you're going to do for with the money before you take this vote.

I would say I'm totally against it until you tell me exactly where the money's going to go and all that.

So, I got I got questions about it.

>> I I think the money is just too tantalizing right now.

It feels like every level of government is broke and people are looking at it going, "Well, people don't want to raise this tax.

Well, they want to take away that tax.

What are we going to do?"

And so, you have politicians who understand that their constituents are dead set against this stuff who are still like, "Well, I guess we have to find a way to say yes."

I thought it was really interesting in the past week that the public safety director for the city of St.

Louis uh his recommendation was sort of quietly put forward showed up on an agenda where he is recommending the permit for the data center that would be next to the armory in the heart of Midtown.

He's recommending that that move forward and that has to go to this city board and that's been somewhat delayed because the mayor says she wants to understand more about what's happening.

I think that's moving in the same direction.

You're going to see local governments like dominoes.

That's going to be pitchforks and torches.

>> Oh, they're already out.

>> Well, you know, it might also I remember when Andy Taylor had his big design to improve St.

Louis in the central corridor all the way from Clayton through Forest Park down through Cortex and then uh in Midtown and all the way to the arch including the soldiers of memorial.

It was a big straight line.

And now you're telling me in addition to that we've got the brickline greenway.

You're going to put a data center there.

I agree.

But urban planner would approve that.

>> That's that location to that one is why I'm totally against that.

I don't it's easy for me to say I'm against them all, but if you put it in on the and I'm not saying like because it's blighted because the population there, but if you put it in on the north side and said that the money that comes with it has to be spent on the north side, then I think people could get with that.

I think I think so too.

>> How about where the old workhouse was?

>> Yeah, I think there's a lot of good spots on the riverfront.

I think part of what makes these sites so attractive in the heart of the city is that apparently along where the old rail lines were, there is like this heavyduty electric infrastructure that makes it like immediately appealing to a data center developer.

It's not a coincidence they're looking at.

>> Well, I'm sure that's true, but don't forget like Amazon's uh market cap is $3.3 trillion.

I mean, so, you know, let's say they spend $100 million on this infrastructure.

That's a that's nothing to them.

>> Yeah.

>> Hey, Wendy, I want to ask you about what's going on in St.

Charles uh city leaders there I think unanimously agreed to enter into an agreement with the Immigration and Customs Enforcement the very controversial federal agency which has been uh rounding up illegal and sometimes legal immigrants right and then deporting them.

So they have this agreement it's called the 287G about 60 police jurisdictions in the state have it but only three here Breenidge Hills Jefferson County and now St.

Charles and it means that the local police officers will be working with ICE to round up people who are not supposed to be here.

>> What do you think?

>> Well, there were some unhappy people at the council meeting, but it was still passed unanimously.

And I think we have to we have to remember that I think in my lifetime and I I I really do mean this.

I can't remember a more polarizing topic than than this this immigration issue and ICE issue because the people in St.

Charles obviously think that this is a very necessary heroic government agency and they are welcoming them and I think the rest of us you know before we have to remember this is for the people in St.

Charles County.

I don't judge anybody for what what they what they want in their county.

Let them have it.

>> Okay.

But that's our neighboring county.

And then for them to say well we have this and there won't be a Minneapolis situation here.

You don't know that.

And what if what if a police officer gets hurt in some mishap, not with a somebody here illegally, but a citizen of St.

Charles or a citizen of the region of St.

Louis?

It's inviting trouble.

It's inviting chaos.

And I just think it's a bad move.

>> But it Yeah, it's it's law enforcement.

And I think some people, as you said, they see they see an affront on the citizens.

other people see the saviors who are trying to make sure that American citizens aren't killed by >> Can I ask if if Donald Trump changed his mind tomorrow and said like, you know what, I is a bad thing, all of a sudden St.

Charles wouldn't want ICE.

I I don't think I don't think people are making rational decisions.

I don't think so.

I swear I don't think so.

>> I think there are so many people who are anti-immigrant and particularly anti- undocumented immigrant that I I kind of suspect that Alvin's wrong and you're right that St.

Charles maybe hates illegal immigrants more than they love Donald Trump.

To me, I feel so differently about that.

You know, I lived in Phoenix and I lived in Los Angeles at a time that there was high levels of immigration there.

And it added so much vibrancy and so much of what it feels like St.

Louis is missing.

We would really benefit from having more people here.

And I hate that what happens in St.

Charles doesn't necessarily stay in St.

Charles.

It puts out this idea of we're not safe in this region.

We're going to have to like show our papers.

let's clear out of this area and go to a place where we feel safer.

>> Well, you know, I I agree that I I'm really in favor of of im immigrants.

And I think that this is an anti-immigrant sort of thing, legal and illegal.

But I think Wendy's right that this is what the people of St.

Charles by and large want.

I mean, not all of them, you know, but 60% of them.

Sometimes I suspect that maybe Steve Elman looking at an election is thinking, "Oh, I better be on the right side of this, right?

Right of center.

I don't even know if in his heart of hearts he wants this."

And you know, I might trust Steve Elman running the police department with ICE, but what if Bill Iel wins?

Then I wouldn't be.

And I like ICE, but not under this president.

So I I could maybe go under a 287g if we had someone more reasonable in the White House.

And I I have to believe, Bill, I I hope that you are wrong and that it's not just anti-immigration, legal or illegal.

I think most people will tell you that they are all for legal.

>> You can't say that.

Eric Schmidt made a big deal at that uh national con conservative meeting about, you know, let's be honest that it's this it's white people.

It's people from Europe who are the real Americans.

and uh that that that immigration of all sorts was wrong.

So, you know, and I don't think everybody in St.

Charles believes that.

It's like anything, you know, you you can't say 100% of the people or even 80% believe it.

But I think it's the over uh reaching opinion out there.

>> I think it's also, you know, some people are going to be afraid to call the police now in St.

Charles.

certain individuals >> empower ice that's a problem.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh I want to go to you Alvin on Proposition F. Actually there's a couple of interesting propositions out there.

One in St.

Charles I think it's called Proposition RT would say that uh not just seniors those 62 and over but everyone could freeze their property taxes at existing levels.

Then in various fire protection districts, there's something called Proposition F, which for example in the Pattonville Fire Protection District would increase the sales tax 1% to fund firefighters.

1% on top of 9%.

We're at 10% now.

And that's almost as that's what you pay for a hotel tax.

>> It's funny, I just booked some hotel rooms today.

uh it sales tax is getting pretty high and in the state is if it gets its way, it's going to, you know, burden the whole state with higher sales taxes uh because they're going to eliminate the income tax.

As far as the fire protection districts, no matter what I feel about them, if each individual municipality can vote on that, then that's up to them.

All right?

And I don't know where their sales tax is at, but if it's not one big we're all involved in this, if it's each municipality, um, you know, I could get with that.

Freezing these taxes are just horrible ideas.

I think this is just political stuff.

Like you say, like, you know, I'm running for office and right now I don't want to upront anybody.

So, yeah, let's cut taxes.

Let's let's freeze the sales tax.

And especially in if you're in a place that's already strapped to, you know, pay your police force, your fire department, all these different things.

These are bad ideas.

It's just it's just bad economics.

And people are ultimately the municipalities that do these things are going to pay the price.

Well, Tom Snyder, former uh mayor of Florison and Bob Nations, your old friend, former mayor of Chesterfield, they're against this and they they uh made the point that people don't know enough about it.

Maybe it should be put off until November.

>> This is they're against the firefighter thing.

>> Well, against Prop F, right?

Right.

Which which is not really for the firefighters.

It's it's for equipment.

Yeah.

But but these people are saying we don't the public is not really well educated on this.

Let's put it off to November.

>> I thought, well, that makes some sense.

>> Well, it does.

And like you say, when the fire chief ends up with a Range Rover, that's equipment.

You know, I I but but it's up to them to vote for it.

So, >> well, it's interesting because in St.

Charles, they're talking about moving all of the municipal, including the uh school board elections, to November.

And in some cases, I think that makes a lot of sense because like in the city of St.

Louis last year in April, we had a uh mayor election only 26% of the people showed up.

The year before in April, 7% of the voters showed up.

The year before in April, 18%.

Maybe we should skip the April elections and move them to November.

I Go ahead.

>> Oh, I was going to say I'm all for pushing back this firefighter t uh not for firefighters, for fire equipment because it sounds like we don't know much about it.

But I was gonna say the dangerous thing about pushing everything to November is you end up with a lot of lower information voters who are turning out and they're like, "Oh, I care about the presidency."

So yeah, and when the rest of it I'm just throwing a dart at it.

It's your highinformation voters that turn out in the spring.

They're super engaged.

They care about the mayor's race.

They care about, you know, the board of public service.

It's, you know, you can really dilute that pool.

And I think that's why some municipalities have clung so tightly to let's keep this at an obscure time.

And and one of the uh proponents of this idea said like uh you know we ought to have it in November because in the spring uh people are too busy living their lives to actually vote.

And I said like well that's one reason that you shouldn't move it to November.

I these are this is once again another bad idea.

>> You you got to agree with me the August primary makes no sense.

Nobody's around.

>> Well I mean I >> some of us working folk are around.

I know y'all like >> working folk are traveling.

No.

Well, no.

I vote in all the I vote in every election, but maybe I'm a, like I say, a dinosaur that actually physically goes and votes.

Uh, these are bad ideas.

And and guess what?

The years seem long right now, but they're going to pass by.

And I think there are a lot of Republicans out there throughout the nation that two years from now or three years from now, they're going to be saying like, "Hey, how do we reel all this stuff back that we put out there?"

And that's one of those ideas, >> you know, and I think the idea of just wanting the highly motivated voters to vote.

>> It's a tempting idea, but I don't like it.

I I like the idea of let having everybody vote.

And even though a lot of these folks aren't going to really know what the issues are, >> I I prefer that.

>> And even though this is a major groaner, I agree with with Mayor Nations and the rest of them.

I mean, where's the fire?

You know, >> on Proposition F. Yeah, it can wait.

I I think the sales tax is way too high to increase.

>> Well, and to the point of like, you know, we're looking at this thing now at a time of year when there's very few of us who go to vote, it does allow a special interest group to muscle in there, you know, firefighters who have a lot of time to go out there camp and campaigners.

Yeah.

Hit the homes that are paying attention.

It's almost a little too easy to rig an April election.

>> Hey Sarah, I want to ask you about food outreach.

uh the longtime notforprofit which provides food to people who need it is in the middle of a controversy.

Now your paper I think reported on this first.

>> They had a um uh a worker by the name of Justin Crayleman who online was known as Woke Ginger and he had quite the following.

Uh he also had a prominent position in food outreach.

He was second from the top.

he was, you know, in the leadership circle and uh he actually went online and he started, I guess, sharing information that was derogatory towards Enterprise Mobility, formerly known as Enterprise Renar.

Turns out one of their executives is on the food outreach board, and they also contribute, you know, tens of thousands of dollars per year to food outreach.

So, he was given the heave ho.

He says his political beliefs were uh infringed and that he has a right under Missouri statute to keep his job.

>> Yeah.

You know, I talked to a really good employment lawyer who was like, "Yeah, there actually is this obscure Missouri statute that his lawyer is using here in a way that could work."

The lawyer said, "Big grain of salt.

The reason most people don't use the statute is the damages that could come out of this are very minimal.

But he's able to make the point in a lawsuit that I was treated unfairly.

I shouldn't have been fired.

And I think he's been able to bring this case to the court of public opinion to say, was food outreach wrong to silence me for this?

You know, I I can understand what the director of food outreach must have been going through, trying to deal with trying to keep a board member happy and trying to deal with the woke ginger who's moonlighting as a Tik Tok and Instagram influencer.

That's a really tough situation to be in.

But I don't like the idea of people who are on the board of directors who are able to say, "Yeah, well, because you work here, you can't have opinions about things going on in politics."

He was commenting about a controversy where people across the country have been saying to Enterprise, "Hey, we see you working with ICE.

You're renting your cars to ICE.

You should not support this regime and what they're doing on immigration."

And so to sort of take away his right to comment on that, just because Enterprise is is donating to a nonprofit that does great work, I don't like that.

And I do want to clarify, they've said they had nothing to do with this, >> right?

I was going to say Enterprise said they had nothing to do with it.

But besides, you know, he's he does have the right to say whatever he wants, but if he wants to trash the people who are providing the money, paying his salary, they have the right to say we don't like being trashed.

And you or it could even if they didn't say it, his boss could think this isn't good for the company here.

Oh, sure.

>> Having having ginger, >> woke, having woke ginger out there berating the people who are giving us money.

So, I I think woke ginger, if I was on the court of public opinion, I'm voting that.

Sorry, woke ginger, but you're out of luck here.

>> Save your Yes.

Save your legal fees, woke Ginger, because when he says it's not fair, well, you know, life's not fair.

And you are doing, you're talking about the really good work being done to feed people who don't have enough food.

So, your little, you know, your right to express your little opinion is not nearly as important as the good work being done.

And absolutely, with every right comes a responsibility.

And you are responsible to the people that you work for, not to make them look bad.

>> And we've had this, we've had this million, the school teachers, all that.

And I feel for the people, but you have to write because look, all all five of us, I'm sure there's some things we would like like to blast off on.

I don't really do social media, but at the same time, like, okay, I know somebody on somebody's board somewhere would call somebody and say like, you know what Alvin said, and I don't want us to lose anything.

We're we're blasting off on this show.

What if somebody called the board of directors of of NinePBS?

Thank god they don't and that people respect our right to have these stupid opinions that we have.

>> But one, I'm sure they probably do.

And two, but we don't really say anything.

I think that's like what would be inflammatory to a point that >> Oh, I think people find some of the things that we all say inflammatory.

>> But I I think Woke Ginger I it's it's sort of our job to be opinionated on this show.

It was sort of do go out and trash people getting food.

>> I think Woke Ginger's lawyer is wrong because there is that Missouri statute that says your political beliefs and opinions can't cause you to lose your job or your money.

But these weren't political beliefs and opinions.

They were opinions about a company that is what's Enterprise supposed to do anyway?

I mean, is Ted Drews not supposed to sell ice cream to ICE agents?

Can American Airlines say you're not you can't fly?

I I do want to say though, like the net effect of this is we're all talking about Enterprise running cars to ice, which the couple times we wrote about this controversy, nobody really seemed to read that story.

The woke ginger has everyone talking about this.

They probably should have just let him have his job and not made his soap box bigger.

>> Hey, who do we go to next?

How about you, Bill?

Uh the census says that St.

Louis City and St.

Louis County have lost population again in the last two years.

The region is just about stable.

Gained a little bit.

Uh but the counties that did well were Franklin, St.

Charles, Warren, and >> Jefferson.

>> Jefferson.

I think you're exactly right.

Yeah.

Um but overall, if it weren't for the immigrants coming here, we would be going backwards.

We would be losing population.

I I don't see more immigrants coming here, at least not in the next couple of years.

I don't think there's an answer to this.

Do you?

>> Well, I don't know.

I I looked up some statistics and in 1900 52% of people in St.

Louis were foreignb born.

That was stunning to me.

But as far as what's happening in the region, I think that Franklin County and Jefferson County, St.

Charles County aren't gaining people from anywhere but here.

They're g gaining people from St.

Louis and St.

Louis County.

And the only uh light candle in the darkness that I can see is that we have a lot of water.

And someday soon, I think that's going to be a very nice thing to have.

When I was out in Phoenix, I was shocked that the temperature was, you know, 100 degrees in March and they get all their water from the Colorado River and they're fe afraid of losing a lot of it.

And the one thing we have is water.

So water might save us in the end.

>> I go ahead.

>> There was just a story in the Atlantic about how the Midwest is again growing.

That people are looking for a lower cost of living.

They're looking for life that isn't quite so chaotic.

We also have an amazing source of fresh water here.

I I want to believe that the tide is going to turn here and that our way of living may become popular again.

>> It will.

That's what I was going to say that uh ultimately immigration won't be the dirty word that it is right now and people will come back to St.

Louis.

We should not stop our efforts to draw immigrants to St.

Louis because the day will come when immigrants are welcome again.

>> We're all immigrants.

I mean, >> well, yeah, >> you know, we are.

>> I I I agree.

I agree.

We got here differently.

But >> I'm surprised it was 52%.

That's an amazing statistic, and I would not have known that.

So, >> well, I got to go back to Google, so I mean, don't don't trust me completely on that one either.

>> No, I think that's uh that that says a lot.

>> I thought Jason Rosenbomb was on the show.

But if life is so bad in Phoenix, why is it expanding like tenfold every decade?

>> I will say from some friends who live there, they say it has become increasingly untenable.

They used to love it there.

And the climate is actively changing.

And I think you're going to see in 10 years, people are going to say, "I cannot raise a family here.

It is no longer possible."

>> Yeah.

I mean, my friends are the same way.

>> Yeah.

>> Well, especially if you can't shower if it gets to that where there is no water and we do have water.

I mean, that's a very >> insightful comment.

Bring us your tired, you're poor, and take a shower.

>> And you're thirsty.

>> And you're thirsty.

>> Go to the mailbag and see what people had to say about last week's program.

>> I yearn for when sports were on the same channel every day.

But the TV channel Chaos is not unique for the Cardinals.

Their primary provider went bankrupt in the offseason, leading to last minute scrambling.

That from Matt Carroll to Wendy and Joe.

Once again, our state's Republican legislators overturned the people's vote by removing local control of the police department.

Then, many of the board members with previous ties to the police totally ignored the city's budget while spending like drunken sailors.

So, please don't tell me I'm being petty when I choose to boycott their businesses.

That from Michael Serzinski of St.

Louis.

And Mary Berdick wrote, "I don't think that we can blame social media for all the problems our children face.

Not when we are the ones providing them the phones and other devices with which they access those sites.

You can write us care of 9PBS St.

Louis, Missouri 63108 on social media.

Don't forget donnybrook at 9pbs.org.

Actually, that's the email address on social media donnybrookst.

Call the Nel line at 314512994 and listen to us on your favorite podcast source wherever you are.

Don't forget two weeks from tonight, it's our annual fundraiser.

We call it Donny Bash and we welcome you to join us April 16th.

For more details, go to 9pbs.org/donnybash.

Our program Last Call is coming up on YouTube.

It's on the 9PBS YouTube channel.

And this week, we'll talk about the closing, the unexpected closing of the National Blues Museum.

And in Illinois, they're thinking about eliminating the language requirement in high schools.

Can you believe that?

Those and other topics.

Thank you so much for joining us.

Thanks to Alvin for sitting in for four straight weeks.

And uh everybody, happy Passover, happy Easter.

We'll see you next week.

Donnybrook is made possible by the support of the Betsy and Thomas Patterson Foundation and the members of Nine PBS.

Falling.