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>> Live from the Sheldon Concert Hall in Grand Center, this is Donnybash.

>> Well, thank you very much.

Live from the Sheldon, it's Donnybash 2026.

We have a great crowd and we have a lot of topics in our annual fundraiser.

So, why don't we do this?

We will uh introduce the panelists and then jump right in.

She's the media veteran herself.

Ladies and gentlemen, give it up for Wendy Wiese, one of our founders who was there when they started the show in January of 1987.

Can you believe that?

From the post, Bill McClellen.

Also from the post and stl today.com, ladies and gentlemen, Joe Holleman from the St.

Louis American needs no introduction, I'm sure.

Alvin Reid and with the longest resume in town, uh, the 314 podcast, St.

Louis magazine, the daily newsletter, St.

Louis Public Radio's legal roundt, and she washes windows on her spare time.

Uh, Sarah Fenske.

>> Okay.

Thank you.

Thank you.

We're going to kick things off with one of our founders because this week uh we've been talking about data centers quite a bit as you know.

These are these uh giant uh buildings that are in the news right now.

They process and store data.

They also require a lot of electricity and water.

They've received a lot of local and state opposition.

And in fact, this week the state of Maine banned large data centers throughout the entire state.

Right.

So, it was last week, Bill, that we said that four representatives on the Festus City Council were thrown out by the angry voters.

Even one guy who voted against the data centers and Bob Clark, the uh executive chairman of Cleo, huge company uh in St.

Louis and uh Chicago and around the country.

In fact, Bob Clark is actually building the Obama Presidential Library in your native Chicago.

Uh he came out with a press conference trying to address some concerns and among other things, he said, "Hey, I don't want Missouri to lose out on data centers and be off the map.

Do you think he has a chance of succeeding in Fesus?"

>> No.

No.

You know, I I mean I I I I don't understand data centers at all, but human nature is such is in Jefferson County, and in Jefferson County, judges are elected, and then they have to run for reelection, and no judge in his right mind is going to side with Clark against the people with pitchforks.

especially, you know, that these emails are coming to light where the data center people talked about sheep and uneducated people.

And if I were a judge in Jefferson County and wanted to keep my job, I would carefully look at this and weigh all the legal merits and decide that Clark is wrong and that and that the people are right.

So, I'm safe to put money on this one.

Bob Clark will lose in Fesus.

>> All right.

I uh those emails sound like us.

Um when we get to talking and so I'm not going to hold it against them as far as the emails were concerned because I think that's how you talk.

I mean, I wasn't insulted, but of course I don't live down there.

All right.

But I will say this that I actually kind of disagree with you because no matter where we are in the United States of America right now, I kind of think the law is the law.

And so I think that I I I don't agree with Bob Clark, but I don't agree that a judge would just say like, "No, I want to get reelected.

They're supposed to be representing the law."

So I will say that I disagree with you.

But as far as Bob Clark succeeding overall down here, his little speech that he was making sound like, you know, Bugs Bunny cartoon where you Sam used to make him make you dance and he was just kind of like talking and whatnot.

That's like, Bob, you really ain't making no sense right now, you know?

I So, >> but if you if you speak Bob Clark and we all do, >> what he was saying seemed kind of anemic.

I I have to go with Bill.

I think he knows I think that he knows that he has an uphill battle here.

>> I agree with you and I and I want to say right up front, I have nothing but the most respect for somebody like Bob Clark who puts his money where his mouth is, who actually really builds things and and employs people.

But when these like when you have Jeff Bezos and the situation in Oregon where he had to settle 20 million 20.4 four million because of an increase in nitrium levels in the water or something.

They were eight times the level that's acceptable.

Um when they start saying, "Oh, there's nothing to see here."

When billionaires start building data centers in their backyard, then I think we'll all feel a lot better about it.

Hey, >> you know, so that would be all right.

I will say as much as I want to believe what Bill is saying here and you would think that the entire city council being voted out of office would be like the most powerful message you could send.

It's just not what I see in America right now.

And what I see is that money seems to always win right now.

And it depresses me so badly.

But there is so much venture capital that is going into these data centers.

There is so much speculation around them.

And there are so many people that stand to make money that I'm like they are going to find a way.

And maybe it won't be Fesus.

Maybe they'll find some saps that'll go for it, but they will find a way.

>> Well, well, they might, but I I got faith in the judges in Jefferson County.

>> Well, >> and I think they're going to find a way here.

I really do.

>> I think I I think we've been as we've been talking about these issues, and I'm not saying I'm for or against data centers.

My position has been they're going to be built somewhere.

Okay.

So, now maybe Fesus doesn't want them, maybe St.

Charles doesn't want him.

But I remember starting in my career working in southern Illinois and Illinois said they were building a new prison and a whole bunch of cities said they didn't want it and some cities said we'll take that prison and popular in Missouri.

>> Well, and because it also creates jobs.

It's how Tuna, Mississippi ended up with a casino.

>> Other people didn't want it, but they said, "Hey, we'll take anything.

We have no jobs.

We have no future.

We have no revenue."

>> Well, there and so people took it.

There are Joe some construction jobs, but there aren't that many jobs.

And overall, if these data centers are designed to uh help us with artificial intelligence, don't you think overall it'll be a net loss of jobs >> eventually?

I I think that we started we lit that candle 20 years ago.

>> Well, okay.

I mean, this idea that all of a sudden now we're getting concerned might be a little too little too late when people have been entering their life's information into a computer and now we're against AI.

Okay.

But if these are the people who have brought us AI, aren't they smart enough to come up with some kind of an alternative plan to to fuel >> Well, you know, don't count Bob Clark out yet.

Don't forget he's got the the signed framework, so he's got papers.

Well, that's what I'm saying.

That's number one.

Number two, uh my wife had a anniversary last week with her high school, you know, a reunion, and one of the husbands of one of her classmates worked for Bob for like 20 years.

I said, "Well, uh what was he like?"

He goes, "Well, I'll tell you what.

I learned how to make a presentation from Bob Clark in a room he can really sell you.

And I'll tell you what, he hasn't met yet.

>> I mean, I saw read you looked at the whole thing.

>> He hasn't tried to sell you.

>> Well, I he doesn't have to sell you.

He doesn't have to win in the court of opinion.

By the way, I'm guessing they're not going to put one in Kirkwood.

>> No.

Small world.

Small world.

That prison you were talking about, they built in Danville, Illinois, where my first uh paper was uh medium security prison.

And two, um, do you know there are as many moose in Maine as there are people?

So the moose vote must have actually spoken.

>> Yeah.

And you know the thing is is I think there's a couple things that we've looked at.

>> Go ahead.

>> That we that we we we were ignoring things.

One, you say money now talks.

Money is always talked.

Oh, sure.

>> So I don't I don't think we're in some new area where all of a sudden money gets things done.

And the other thing is it's still a nimi issue.

The people in Fesus don't want it in Fesus.

I'm not hearing them say we don't want them in Missouri.

Well, you know, I ran into a couple from Ferguson tonight, and that brings us to our next topic.

Maybe um Bill, I'll throw it your way as well.

Um or Alvin.

Ferguson is now the site of an empty lot that was the Emerson headquarters and a personal injury lawyer, Jim Ander, bought it.

And he's talking about a $22 billion development that'll include a data center.

To put this in perspective, the National Geospatial Agency, that's less than $2 billion.

Michael Stainberg's new downtown in Chesterfield, that's about a billion billion and a half.

So you add those up together, multiply by five, that's what you're going to have on this campus.

And the couple from Ferguson said, "Yes, we'd like that because we think our city needs the money."

Well, I mean, you're talking 22 billion as compared to whatever.

I mean, where they just launched Artemis from probably don't cost$22 billion dollars.

So, I mean, you know, I we know what Mr.

Andre does and they start high, you know, and kind of work down.

So, I don't think it'll ever be a 22.

I don't think there'll ever be a$22 billion thing in Ferguson.

But it also comes down to if the people of Ferguson decide that we would like to turn where this is into a uh data center, then I can't argue with the people of Ferguson.

But I would warn them that the promise can't be fulfilled.

So are we talking pie in the sky?

Are we just trying to winnow it down to a number that is in reality?

I think that Ferguson deal could be one of the few cases where you might see the public go, okay, we could live with a data center.

It's a location that's already this giant corporate campus.

It's a part of town in North County where they really could use the money.

The schools could use the money.

The problem is they're coming in wanting giant tax incentives.

This for something where developers of data centers should be promising giant checks to municipalities where they locate rather than vice versa.

Well, you know, they you know, they >> that's exactly right.

>> They they're they're also trying to sell this as a entrepreneurial hub that happens to have a data center, which I think it will end up being a data center that almost had an entrepreneurial hub and it, you know, the it it might provide some money, but the school districts are against it.

They're saying that these tax breaks are too much.

I say they're against the tax breaks.

They're not against the development.

>> Well, the the de the development includes these tax breaks, >> right?

I mean, they'd be they'd love to see 22 billion get invested there.

>> If they just don't want the tax breaks.

Here's the problem.

Absolutely.

>> But but you probably won't get the 22 billion supposedly invested without the tax breaks.

>> Here's the problem that they don't tell you about.

uh Boston Globe this week low mass the residents there complained that there's a constant wor in their homes as a result of the generators which never stop in the nearby data center also there's the constant smell of diesel fuel the fuel is used to you know run the generators now would you want to live in a neighborhood where there's a constant wor from a large plant in your home or the smell of diesel you know that's they don't mention that often when they're that's why We have nimi issues.

>> Well, you don't want in your backyard.

I don't really have a problem with diesel smoke up in Chila Coffee.

I really don't.

I mean, if anybody here's from Chilikothy, I'm sorry, right?

But, uh, you know, I mean, that's what this is.

I don't want it around me, but maybe it's a good idea.

>> But don't you think that's the problem?

I mean, think of all of the environmental disasters that we have seen.

This is beginning to feel a little bit like fracking to me.

at least when you start to read and you see all of these things on you know you see these videos with these experts and I mean we have the the burning landfill out north it's like we have to eventually as you said Sarah turn back the money I know that is very difficult to do in 2026 >> or or of this okay 22 billion or not we'll figure out what that figure is but if I'm them I call up the school district and say like how about we cut you a check right right off the top for $300 million.

I think you can I'm not saying you buy approval, but at the same time, this is why I said like, look, I would not say no.

I don't live on, you know, St.

Louis north side, but on the St.

Louis north side, if somebody wanted to do one there, and they said like, okay, here's the deal.

If you let us do it here, we are going to write a check for $500 million, but it has to be used on the city's north side.

That's all there is to it.

And we'll see if people want to do it or not.

>> $500 million.

That's a lot of nights at the 801 chap house.

>> Amen.

Pretty much.

Uh, will Creve Core accept county government?

Alvin, we'll go to you on this one as well.

Um, Sam Page not too long ago brought Gary Earls, uh, longtime operative in county government out of retirement.

I think he was living in Arkansas.

He said, uh, let's work on this deal to try and find a home for St.

Louis County government because the building we're in is going to need new sprinklers by the end of 2027, I believe.

And to put those in, we're going to have huge expensive asbestous problems.

So, some people said, "Let's go to the old what?

Northwest Plaza."

>> Now, they're talking about Lindberg and uh Olive in Cre.

What do you think about them apples?

Well, first it's like Gary Earls is like like a Cohen brothers movie where when it's just the crap hits the fan like call Gary Earls he'll settle it and so he come up for Arkansas just my you know like and now all these possible deals are are are flying around.

I I like the idea quite frankly and it's not that I have to deal and go down to the county offices that often but I didn't necessarily want to go up to Northwest Plaza you know to you know pay my personal property tax and all that.

So, if it's cheap and it works and there's parking, I got no problem with it.

>> You can send those in by mail or pay.

>> No, no, no, wait.

The late I'll tell you a story.

The late Mr.

Reed, my dad, he was he was literally like you pay your you take your bills and whatnot.

So, I did it.

We took turns and take your bills.

Years later, my father had passed away.

My mom and my sister said like, "Alvin, did you actually go to these places and take the checks?"

And we're like, "Yes, I did."

I said like, "Oh, we just put a stamp on it."

I like >> right >> you lied to me.

So how about Creep Core?

>> I I if if Northwest Plaza makes sense, if it makes financial sense, if it's the only way it can happen, then that's all right.

But when we think of central government, I wasn't that good in geography, but Northwest Plaza is a little bit farther away than Creve Core when you think of the county seat in Clayton.

So that's where I would hope we end up.

>> Yeah.

you know, there's got to be good deals on uh commercial real estate these days because everybody's working at home, right?

>> The the problem I see is this Roose building in Clayton, you know, is going to suddenly be a 10story empty hole, just like say the AT&T building in downtown St.

Louis.

So I think I wish there's a way that they could just put these sprinklers in and keep the roose building and keep Clayton as the center of the >> that might data center data center.

Exactly.

Let's make it a >> It does seem like the craziest thing that this building that's not that old, it's suddenly like we're going to have to abandon this.

Like how do we get there?

I I don't understand this.

The thing that I like about this Cre deal, I don't love that.

like, okay, we're gonna give this to like one of the most affluent parts of town when there's a lot of parts of town that would kill to have more jobs come there and have people have a reason to go visit there.

It would be good for St.

Anne to have this, but I think County Executive Page has been very frustrated that he feels that the Garner brothers that own this Northwest Plaza that they are trying to command way too high a fee.

And if nothing else, having this great plausible alternative that allows the county to bargain more like you would want them to bargain as stewards of your tax dollars.

I >> I don't have a problem with it.

For one, I don't think the job issue is as great as in some other cases because the county employees are the county employees and they're going to go wherever that building moves.

So, I'm not sure that it's location will generate more people from that area working there or they'd already be working for the county government.

But, I also think it just makes sense, which is the reason this will probably never happen.

But, I mean, people in South County don't like the idea of a north county.

People in North County wouldn't like it if they built it in Oakville.

And I get it.

It's supposed to be somewhat at least the inconvenience to both sides is somewhat equal not as opposed to one side has to drive the length of the county to get there.

So I think this will be a this ultimately will be a nimi issue because I think people win creep corps will who are there will probably say like you know what I really don't want all these people from all around the county driving into our pristine municipality.

Now, I know it's right at the at at, you know, Lindberg and Olive or whatever, but I guarantee you there will be a faction of the good citizens of Cream Coral like we don't want this here.

>> Well, I don't know what the upside's going to be because that that property will not pay taxes, right?

Not that it did maybe with SSM.

Is that a not for-p profofit?

It was it's it's a building that housed SSM operations and now it'll be counted.

>> Well, but I mean, everyone wants office workers because then they support the businesses all around them.

It adds vitality.

But there aren't that many businesses right there.

>> You got to eat lunch somewhere.

>> Yeah.

>> Let me ask you and buy gas and do stuff that you don't bring revenue.

>> You know, I I I hope wherever it is they have parking.

I mean, the problem in Clayton is they have parking meters, but I can't operate them.

>> Yeah.

>> I mean, you know that you you can't put you can't put a quarter in the thing.

You have And I'm not the only one.

I've seen other people standing there in the parking lot trying to wave a credit card at these things and you know you have to make it easy on this park.

I agree.

>> I still need to take some kind of remedial class on tapping the credit card.

I can't tell you how many people have >> I enjoy watching you guys try to pay.

>> I know.

I know.

>> Joe Hollerman, uh you cover politics and this is a strange one because there is a nonstop uh from St.

Lewis to London on British Air that commences on Sunday.

Right.

>> And so, uh, to kick things off on the inaugural voyage, Sam Paige, county executive, will be among the passengers.

Now, apparently the county charter says that when he is out of town or out of the country, then the chairman of the county council, in this case, Rita her days, is in charge.

He wants her to sign papers indicating that he she will not take excessive action in his absence.

She said, "I'll do whatever the charter allows me to do."

Do you really think that this individual rid of her days is really likely to do things that would bother Sam Page in five days?

He's only going to be there five days.

>> And and I I will leave I will leave the yays or nays to other people.

I just know this is my favorite story in a long time.

>> Absolutely.

>> I love this story.

I'm glad I'm not writing about it myself because if I were Rita Days, I would be letting it be known that I was going to do all kinds of I might just move to Chila Coffee.

I'm going to take the whole government I because this is clearly just shows how dysfunctional, how broken the relationship is between Sam Page and the county council.

I think she's winning already that it's making Sam Page go, "What's she going to do when I'm gone?

>> Maybe I can't go on this trip."

And this trip, okay, the trip, these are called junkets, okay?

>> They're free trips for people who hold offices and it's a perk.

So the idea that anybody would lose out on going on a junket, I I don't care.

>> So I just think it's a great game.

>> Oh, go ahead.

>> No, you I mean you you all understand that these are two Democrats who can't work together.

This is the problem in 2026.

You've got so much infighting in the parties, whether it's Washington or whether it's here at the local level.

That's a crazy development.

And I think I don't know if we could ask the husbands on the panel.

Sarah and I have our husbands here in the audience.

I love Rita Herd days and I think this proves how far a woman will go to prove a point because she's the one who changed the charter last year.

>> All right, Woody, I wouldn't I wouldn't use rid of her days as example anything.

I'm sorry.

All right.

>> She is a politician.

He is an anesthesiologist.

>> All right, let's just let's Let's let's let's flip-flop this situation.

If JD Vance was president of the United States, all right, and Donald Trump was the vice president of the United States, would you trust Donald Trump the second?

Like if Vance left the country and Donald Trump was like, I'm in charge now.

Okay.

To me, it's the same thing.

Like, rid of her days is proven to be a concern.

And thus, if I'm Sam Paige, I want her to sign that because she really would do some whack stuff like that.

>> You know what?

I don't think she would.

>> No, I do.

>> Do we are we talking about the same risk?

>> I am exactly talking about the same.

>> I can't think of something.

>> She's got you right where she's got Sam.

I'll tell you set up on what I don't understand is she's got the door come the next election.

That's what she's got.

There was actually a judge's ruling.

>> Yeah, the judge's ruling came this afternoon and Sam Paige has won this round.

He is in charge.

And what the judge's ruling, >> right?

>> What the judge's ruling came down to is like if you're traveling international these days, you can hop on Zoom.

You can respond to texts.

You don't need a power grab.

So, if her goal was to get him to spend county money on lawyers, why would that be anyone's goal?

>> But we talk about the charter.

We're very, very because this is the first flight of British Airways.

>> I think he should.

Joe doesn't think so.

But he's going to be there.

>> I don't care.

I mean, if he wants to go, go.

But let's quit acting like it's some big deal.

>> It is a big deal.

>> No, it's a perk.

It's a junk.

>> No, this is going to come back with a bunch of contracts with that.

>> No, it's a way to say thank you to British Airways for thinking I >> send him a nice fruit basket.

Save a little besides if you have the if you have the chance to go free somewhere, who's not going to take this?

>> I'm not criticizing that.

I would take it.

But who's gonna defend someone's right to take a free trip?

>> I think >> that's only because y'all want some free trips, right?

All right.

I see where you're at.

I see where you're at.

>> We We do have some big news.

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>> Okay.

Uh we are now moving on to uh Wendy.

This is another strange situation.

Uh in the first ward of St.

Charles City in the most recent election, there was a tie.

572 votes for Chris Kyle, 572 votes for Bill Otto.

So they tied.

They looked at the charter there and they said they could do one of two things.

They could have another election that would cost $30,000 or they could just pick the winner's name out of a hat.

Exactly.

And you are okay with that.

I understand that it's very Maybarian of to say this, but and I when I when I read the story, all I could see was Aunt Bee in the kitchen making biscuits and bringing out an opaque jar so they could put the, you know, the the little pieces of paper in there.

But then when you stop and think about it and step back, as Joe has said a million times, we ask for our representatives to be more fiscally responsible and accountable.

They're saving $30,000.

Do we want them to have a duel in the middle of the street?

Do we want them to rock paper scissors?

I know it's probably equally as scientific, but I'm okay with it.

Sometimes some goofy ideas make a lot of fiscal sense.

I mean, $30,000, like we're at a point where we can't decide who the people would rather have just to save $30,000.

Are we that broke?

>> I I I agree with you, Sarah.

I like $30,000.

Just just do a redo.

>> You know why?

Because you're young, whippers snap.

>> Well, I I I wish >> that's what you are.

>> I'd like to cut the cards.

>> Just have have a deck of cards.

There's a town in Arizona named Xolo that did that.

And the low card wins and the one guy flipped and he had the deuce of clubs, the lowest card in the deck.

And Main Street and Solo is now called Deuce of Clubs.

>> That sounds like Sheriff Alfred Montgomery.

How he hired people.

Fire people.

>> Yeah.

>> But I mean, this is a weird town and it's getting weirder.

No, but I I think if you want to make it interesting, maybe a game of nineball, you know, or throw some darts or But $30,000 so that you can get another shot.

They Okay, here's election day and they voted and it was even, >> right?

>> So now you're going to do it again.

What if it's tied again?

>> They like the NFL.

You go into overtime.

>> Yeah.

>> And keep spending money for what?

For the Councilwoman.

>> Pick a name out and then the next time come up.

the next time the race comes up, let somebody else run.

>> You know, it's notbody else.

It's not like we're not in a time where politics is exceptionally contentious.

I mean, think of some of the things St.

Charles has in front of it right now.

I mean, we're talking about a data center ban.

Like, these are big issues.

There's undoubtedly some key differences of opinion.

Let's see who has the most passionate voters.

>> I agree.

I agree.

Speaking of passion, how about uh bicyclists and pedestrian advocates in the city of St.

Louis?

Uh Sarah Fensky, you know this story well.

Um, the city to try and calm traffic has decided to put in these concrete islands.

They call them bumpouts for traffic calming.

Other people say they're congestion building and they're going to prevent EMS vehicles or fire trucks from getting through quickly.

Well, anyway, some were put in near one of the hotels and some major traffic jams resulted after a concert or a big game.

So now the city after putting them in is taking them out and a lot of safety advocates don't like that.

What do you think?

>> Yeah, I understand why they don't like it.

I mean, you know, bumpouts are designed in many ways to make cars mad because when I'm in a car, it doesn't matter how much I understand about pedestrian safety and cyclist safety.

I want it to be the autobon where I can get from point A to point B and everybody get out of my way.

Well, that is no way to live.

We need to prioritize cyclists, pedestrians, people who have reason to be safe nearby.

Thank you.

And here's the thing.

If you're narrowing the roads by putting in these bumpouts, that is going to make cars go slower and that is going to piss off drivers and you have to find a way to withstand that anger, which everybody's been caving.

Chesterfield caved.

Now you see the city caving.

But man, that is how we end up.

I hate those bumpouts.

I hate those things that go out there and and there's a man in the audience.

I don't want to embarrass him, but who's a bicyclist and he ran into one of those things.

Yeah.

And >> yeah, got hurt.

>> You got to name him or it didn't happen.

>> And and and I want to be clear with Sarah.

We do not cave.

We clutch our pearls.

>> Get it done.

Chesterfield.

>> And as a as a cyclist and I love when they talk about, oh, cyclists love these.

No, we don't.

No, we don't.

But the the other point on this one here is is that to me it was government actually for a change working.

You had a plan.

You executed that plan.

It seems to be working in a lot of places.

You found a place that didn't work.

So you pull it up.

That's called good government.

There's no reason that people should sit 45 minutes stalled in traffic in front of the ballpark because what happens is, and you can say, well, we need to take care of pedestrians.

We also need to take care of the thousands of people who come to baseball games and then want to go home.

>> Get out of town faster.

>> Well, no, it's called go home.

It's called go home.

>> Get them out of town.

Let them go back to the >> And I also have to drive home from a game and I live in the city.

But that's not going out of town.

>> But that's going somewhere in the city.

>> Baseball in St.

Louis is dictating what's safe and what's not safe.

I mean, it sounds like these have to go because the Cardinal >> No.

what the what the drivers think should be happening.

And so you're going to sit there for 45 minutes because I'm guessing what you're saying is there's not a possibility that some of these bumpouts don't need to be there.

It was a perfect plan and it's all infallible.

See, that's what I don't >> I have and I have a little bit of a problem uh with the trail boss Cindy Cindy.

>> Menz, thank you.

um airing this.

You know, I I I think I would I would prefer a phone call, a meeting with Cara Spencer.

Uh Miss Menz is looking for more data.

Mayor Spencer is facing a whooshing sound in downtown St.

Louis and I believe how many people were on this the uh planning committee?

It was like,300 people who I believe had according to her letter in the post, they have already weighed in.

We elect leaders to lead and I think that's what Mayor Spencer was doing and I know that that might not be very popular.

>> I will say this about it.

It's funny how you know even in St.

Louis we want to get something done like the abutments were there and then they were gone.

Why can't we do other stuff?

>> That's what we always used to do.

We weren't ruling by committee and I know that anecdotal information isn't data but sometimes you have to pay attention to the angry people who only need one more reason not to come downtown.

Well, Sarah, speaking of downtown, this week the Brickline Greenway unveiled a new onem stretch between 20th Street and Compton.

And you folks might say, "What is this?"

Well, it's part of a $245 million trail both for bicyclists and as well as pedestrians.

It's beautifully landscaped.

Saw no litter there today.

They have lighting.

They have irrigation.

Uh, I was there at 12:03 and according to the sign, which counts people when you walk by, which is kind of cool, I was the eighth person on it today who walked and that there were 20 bikers.

So, it's not too popular yet.

Overall, I think it'll be great for people who are commuting uh from home to work if they work downtown or vice versa, wherever it is, because now we have a segregated bike lane.

Hooray.

The bikes won't be in the streets, right?

But it's concrete.

There aren't a lot of trees that are grown yet.

I think it's going to be hotter than blazes in the summer.

Do you think it's going to be really popular?

>> I think it is going to be really popular.

And I think, you know, this is just a a 87 uh mile stretch of it.

So, at this point, it's not going to be very popular.

It doesn't go from a place you want to be to a place you want to be.

But unlike the loop trolley, which I love to pick on, my friend Gail is here and will tell you that.

Um, this is going to go from Forest Park to the Arch.

It's going to go from Tower Grove Park to Fairground Park.

That's connecting four of the most beautiful areas in the city of St.

Louis.

I think, guys, I think this is going to be huge for people who live there.

I think you'll see more development and more uh, you know, housing and businesses go along this trail.

I think you'll see visitors use it.

It's exactly the kind of thing I like to do when I visit another city is, you know, let's check out this trail.

we can get from this park to that park and just make a nice day of it.

Give it time for the trees to grow.

It's going to be exceptional.

>> There's a lot of history that they're going to highlight and I think that this is a long-term investment.

200 plus million dollars.

That's quite an investment.

But this is exactly the kind of thing that companies look for when they do have young employees for this, you know, this type of physical activity, family activity, civic activity.

I think it is going to be a very big >> Well, we'll see because I also today went down to the North Riverfront Trail by the same organization, Great Rivers Greenway, and it's it's a dystopian disa disaster right now.

First of all, the signs are obliterated at the trail head.

And then uh you can't pass through.

One of the workers there said, "Well, there some people were stealing the brass and the city and great rivers are arguing who's going to pay for it."

So, they shut off the trail, but didn't tell you how to go around it.

And then uh it's full of graffiti with f-words.

And to its credit, Greenway was there today trying to take them down.

But you know what?

I heard those same sentiments.

Oh, it's going to uh bring people here.

It's going to be popular.

It's going to work out.

I don't know, Joe.

Have you ever been on that North Riverfront trail?

>> Many times.

>> What do you think?

>> Yeah.

No, I I mean I It's fine.

And I mean I think the thing that's going to happen when you're talking about cyclist now at 087 miles >> sure >> but cyclists aren't going to rush right there to ride a mile you know but when you have that trail to when it's going up into Forest Park and we'll take you downtown a bunch of cyclists will be on that because what you can do then is grab the North Riverfront trail, take it up to the Chain of Rocks Bridge, go over to Illinois and then take that up to Alton and I've made that ride several times.

So, I mean, I I think eventually when it gets the longer it gets, the more popular it will get.

And I understand what you're talking about, North Riverfront.

It can be scary sometimes, but I've ridden it a bunch of times with a group of people.

I've never had a problem.

>> And I I wonder if to Joe's point, if once it connects with this much larger trail, you'll see so many more people on it.

It'll solve a lot of the problems we have down on the riverfront right now, which is that it's somewhat of a dead end, >> right?

And the key is is to get it as much a trail built as possible, guys.

I I hope I'm wrong, but like I see that trail going up on on the side of I70 and I'm past there all the time.

I don't see a lot of people using it.

You know, the one that goes by the Shnooks up the north to but I just I think the the everything you just said are perfect arguments for us to have mass transit in St.

Louis.

And if we connect it all up and it'll all work and nobody wants any part.

>> We do have mass transit.

>> Oh yeah.

Okay.

>> We do.

Yeah, we do.

>> That's a billion dollars worth.

>> All right.

But here's the thing.

And and the same problems that haunt St.

Louis will haunt this bike path.

It's going to go to Delmare and yeah the the path might go on but people don't want most people around St.

Louis they don't want to venture that far north into the city and a bike path isn't going to change that.

>> I think you'll see investment that I think when you talk fairgrounds park that's going to have a problem is it's a dead end.

>> So what you have to do is you have to ride it turn around and ride back where it's going to happen is is people are going to go to Delmare take it downtown then you can take that trail.

I mean, most cyclists try to avoid >> going the same route they went.

>> I don't know.

I I'll tell you it's beautifully done, but there aren't any jaw-dropping sites that I've seen yet.

Now, when you get down to the arch, that's jaw-dropping.

And you know, when you when you ride your bike around the country, you know, you get together with the other cyclist.

Oh, where have you been?

Well, I went to Zion.

Oh, I was at Great Alligating Passage.

I was Katie Trail.

Whatever.

And they compare the great things they've seen.

Will they be doing that here?

Well, no.

And I'll tell you why.

Because No.

But but but no, it's the nature of it.

I mean, you have to understand is that when you're riding, first of all, if you're going to set out and you're going to ride a 40 or 50 mile ride, you're only sightseeing for the first 15.

Then after that, you're just trying to finish 50 miles.

>> Okay?

I mean, I did a 100 mile bike ride down in Kentucky called the Horsey 100, and everybody said it's gorgeous.

I don't know what the last 60 miles look like.

Sorry, >> I was I mean you know so you mean but but that's the goal is just to ride the trail >> and and when you talk about jaw-dropping views uh Tino my uh grandson was asking me tonight what are the prettiest views in St.

Louis and the first one that I thought of was in Forest Park up on top of Art Hill >> looking down and the fountains in there and and so any bike trail that takes people to Forest Park I think people are going to remember that.

>> Sounds good.

Sounds good.

Speaking of uh St.

Louis items, Wendy Whis, uh Panera Bakery is really based in both Neita, Mass, but principally in Sunset Hills, and it's a it's in almost every state of the union.

Uh but it's suffered recently.

Uh people have complained that maybe the portions are too small, there aren't enough workers.

Um what else?

They kind of changed the diet.

They had uh all sorts of like fresh bread daily that they don't have anymore.

So, they announced they're going to make some changes and it's just been announced they've got these salad stuffers, which is like a salad within an Italian roll.

Is it going to bring Panera?

Is it going to bring the people back to Panera?

>> It wasn't bad.

>> Why?

>> Yeah, >> I know.

>> It's like a salad sandwich.

>> A salad sandwich.

>> Well, Sarah has tried it.

>> I have tried it.

I I do these things for journalism and Yeah, they stuffed >> they stuffed an entire salad in an entire loaf of bread.

And there's also like a ton of croutons in the salad.

So it's like bread inside of a salad inside a bread.

So >> yeah, that would be that would be kind of redundant.

But in the in the in the big idea department, I don't know that this is going to quite get there.

Do you know what I mean?

Hey, let's put salad in a baguette.

I I I don't because I can have my salad with my baguette and I I I just I think that I think that Panera because frankly they did something that so few corporations do anymore.

They said, "Hey, we messed up."

And a lot of for a lot of people that's like they will they will just write you off.

I hope they come back because I still call it St.

Louis Bread Company.

>> Well, you know, Wendy, they the They discontinued the bear claw.

>> The bear claws.

Now, this is a very big thing.

>> I mean, the bear claw was a a wonderful thing.

And all of a sudden, you go in there and you say, "I don't see a bear claw."

And the clerk, you know, trying to be nice said, "Well, sir, now we're offering pecan rolls."

>> I said, "A pecan roll is not a bear claw.

>> It's not a bear claw."

And and when they bring back the bear claw, I think it'll be a sign of something.

I I >> And I I think every I think everybody just has a preview of Bill's next award-winning column.

>> There you go.

>> Bear.

>> I I I don't think I can stretch that into an entire column.

>> A don't sell you.

No, you could.

>> You are talented.

>> Oh, crowd.

Many of us remember remember blue plate specials.

All right.

>> Yeah.

>> So, that's what I think like, hey, if Panera said like, okay, we have blue plate special on Monday.

You can get a ham and cheese sandwich for $2.50.

People be lined up down the block.

Okay.

But you said like, "Well, we can't afford that."

And I'm always thinking like, "Well, you have no one in here right now."

Instead of 20 people, don't don't get don't get fancy.

Don't stuff a salad in a baguette.

That's Hey, >> there's my part.

What meeting did somebody go?

I got it.

We take a salad and we stick it in a loaf of bread.

>> I I want to defend the salad stuffer.

I'm gonna say the only time I would ever go to Panera would be is if I'm trying to eat something while I'm driving.

It is perfect for that.

So, if you've ever wanted a salad that you can eat while you're got one hand on the >> bowl Sarah, I saw somebody eating a bowl of cereal at a stoplight one time.

I mean, I just make stuff cheaper.

People will show up.

>> That's right.

>> Okay, we solved that problem.

Uh, I want to ask you, uh, I guess Joe, about the Pittsburgh Post Gazette.

Uh, it was about to go out of business, but instead it went to a, uh, this week was announced as going to a notfor-profit organization.

Uh, and that's kind of contrary to what has happened with the Post Dispatch, which has had some financial challenges, and it's now in the hands of David Hoffman, the major real estate developer.

So looking at the Pittsburgh Post Gazette being run by, you know, NinePBS is a not for-p profofit.

Would there be some advantages to that?

>> Um, I don't know.

And I I'll say this.

First of all, let me be the complete corporate toad here >> and say, let's give David Hoffman a chance >> since he's only owned the paper for three months.

So, you know, I don't think that a notfor-profit newspaper operation is necessarily a better thing.

I think it's an alternative, but I think it has its own drawbacks.

Uh, one of the things that they're talking about is they're saying, "Well, we're going to have to reduce our work staff."

Okay.

Right there, as a member of our union at the paper, I don't like that because they're saying, "Well, we may have to lose some jobs here.

We're actually under Mr.

Hoffman's, we've added several people."

So, I'm not saying a lot.

It's not like we're just bringing people in, but we're actually adding staff.

They're talking about we may have to cut staff.

And you also end up the ideas that well it's not for profit.

Yeah, but it's got to get its money from somewhere.

So I think you have the same concerns over who's influencing what that paper covers, how it covers.

So I think that's a viable alternative.

And I'm glad that those reporters, at least most of them, still have jobs.

God bless them.

I think that's absolutely wonderful.

But I don't think you can say that this is the way all papers should go.

I said, "Let's wait and see what the Hoffman Group does here."

>> I heard on NPR today, NPR, and another not for profofit, that uh two American newspapers go out of business every week in this country.

>> Oh, it's staggering.

Yeah.

>> Well, I mean, >> I think the not for-p profofit is where this is all going.

And I think, you know, thank God there's still some kindly billionaires who want to own newspapers, but the one thing you see about kindly billionaires is they're willing to lose money until suddenly they're not willing to lose money.

And we've seen that with the Washington Post.

And I think ultimately journalism is for a public good.

The philanthropic side of it makes sense and it's increasingly where you're seeing it going.

Even at for-profit publications such as St.

Louis magazine that I work for, we now have two staff writers who are paid for through a nonprofit that you know endowed these this thing.

So I think it's increasingly the thing I think it's a great solution in Pittsburgh and that this company they own the Baltimore banner which is just doing gang busters.

It would have been amazing to see them buy the Post Dispatch, but hey, we have the billionaire that we got and I hope it works.

>> I I do too.

And I can tell you Sarah, you know, and I know, you know, weekly newspaper St.

Louis American, there are things, you know, that we do now that if you would ask me this when I was just first coming out of, you know, daily journalism, never in a million years, over my dead body, blah blah blah blah.

Now, I'm the same way.

I'm looking for somebody to sponsor reporter.

We're looking for opportunities to to stay what we are.

and what we were and so we can't we just can't ignore it anymore >> and by covering the important these important stories and doing some real enterprise reporting here the banner has haven't they increased I mean dramatically their circulation and their digital >> they're doing really well they show that with smart owners whether those owners are nonprofit or not that a publication still can be a viable thing in 2026 people want good journalism >> have you checked out the Chicago sometimes they're they're not for profit I think online.

I do it.

>> I do too.

And it's I think it's quite good.

>> Yeah.

>> Much better than the Tribune now in my opinion.

But so if PBS if channel 9 bought the post, you think I could get a job?

>> No.

No.

No.

>> You'd be at the bottom of this scenario.

>> Oh, I start GA again.

Night side.

Night side.

G.

>> Sweetie, I got to cover cops.

>> Okay, we are going to go to our first question from the audience.

And we have Oh my goodness.

It comes from a familiar face.

>> Come on, Jason.

I have to be first.

>> St.

Louis Public Radio.

Ladies and gentlemen, you invited him.

>> Thank you for that raptuous applause.

So, I I wanted to ask initially whether you all thought the Pope, who is a White Sox fan, was soft on crime, but I feel like that's a national question.

Uh what's on my mind is the fact that about 10 days ago, St.

Charles County voters rejected a property tax freeze even though Jefferson and Franklin County voters accepted it.

And my question for the esteemed Donny Brook panel, is that a sign that St.

Charles County is getting bluer?

>> Oh, St.

Charles County St.

Charles County.

>> Actually, I when we were, you know, kind of chatted about that on a show and I said like what's going on out west?

you know, I kind of felt the same way like but now I think it's not bler but I think that they're pragmatic enough and quite frankly I think the county executive there um is the kind of person that I'd like to see in office and I think that the people responded in that we're not going to do crazy stuff just because crazy stuff seems to be in right now.

>> I think it's possible they could be bluer but I also think they just have so much money.

I think I think they thought maybe that for the better good, you know, we could do good things with this money.

So, I was I was heartened to see it.

It was up to them and they decided, yeah, okay, we we'll take a little bit of a tax increase and maybe we'll do some good things with it.

So, >> we've we've seen the, you know, the conflicts on the the, you know, the library boards and that kind of thing where the, you know, the blue is making inroads.

There's it's a sea of red out there.

I don't know that I would I don't know that I would start making flags.

and the school district like Francis How was one of the ones that stood up and said like look this will hurt the school district and they just flipped their school board so I'm not saying it's bluer I'm just saying that people are tired of it >> they don't want to get politicized right >> I think Steve Elman who's actually in the house tonight the county executive from St.

Charles, he probably had it right when he said the opposition to the tax was much better organized than the proponents.

In fact, the proponents >> take it for granted.

Yeah.

>> There was no campaign in favor of this tax and the people who would have been directly affected by losing the tax funds had very good arguments against it.

That's what happened.

>> Another uh question.

Who are we going to?

Do we have uh >> Here we go.

Well, I first want to say I will join Joe for a 50-mi bike ride before a$22 billion development in Ferguson happens.

So, the question I have is we look at this great decoration, Azie Smith, Rich Costa, Nan Wyatt, uh Martin May Dugan, Jack Buck.

When are you going to put Mike Shannon bobblehead up there?

We >> Great question.

That's great.

Great point.

>> And Bill Wilkerson, >> thank you very much.

>> Well, you know, I I I brought the space capsule.

So, well, somebody sent us one.

Yeah.

Right.

>> And his daughter, Dr.

Aaron Shannon, has been a panelist.

You know, she's been That's right.

She sure has.

>> So, we will get on that.

Thank you very much.

>> Great question.

>> How about that?

The late great Mike Shannon.

>> Okay, >> Olivia, we'll go to you.

Um, hi.

Uh, sorry.

>> Um, hi.

Our question is in relation to local and national political events, how have they changed your ideology or supported your conclusion to keep your values the same?

>> Could you repeat the first part?

>> Yeah, sure.

Yeah.

Um, in relation to local and national political events, how have they changed your ideology or supported your conclusion to keep your values the same?

what those values the same.

Um, not to jump in first, but I will say this that everything that, you know, they they say all politics is local.

I kind of believe that.

I mean, whatever is going on around the world, I still come back to, you know, how does this impact me?

And I'm I don't know, I may be like a lot of you all.

I know what's going on in the world, especially, you know, with war and things like that.

But at the same time, I don't torture myself with that stuff.

I mean, you know, that whole the MSNBC verse Fox and all that, I leave that completely alone.

I don't need it.

You don't We We live here.

We've grown up.

We've made our opinions politically, socially, all that.

I don't need somebody to tell me what I should be thinking.

So I >> I think I >> I think that polarizing us I think that I think that our keeping us in our silos making you know ratcheting up the anger everywhere on social media it's on the highways it's everywhere.

I think that forces people to to shut down uh when you have to polit politicize and weaponize every single issue.

I try to remember and I think we all everybody in this room wouldn't be here tonight if they didn't feel the same way about their neighbors and about their communities.

And that's what I think we have to focus on when everything it's very lucrative.

Uh the the the uh the politics of division, it's very very lucrative.

I' I've always thought that that when it comes to your values or moral compass to use another word, I don't think politicians are where you need to be looking for guidance.

>> That's right.

>> And I never have >> of of either side.

Of either side.

>> I think they're doing a job.

That's not what I'm going to use as my life guide to what's right and what's wrong.

>> Okay.

>> Or a group of politicians.

>> Let's see see if we can sneak a few more uh questions in.

There's the microphone right there.

>> Yes.

First, I want to thank the group on the stage for continuing to educate us and to engage in a civil discourse every week that I believe helps the community.

>> Thank you.

Thank you.

My question is recently Sam Page and others have come out again about a city county merger.

What does the group think about this?

I haven't taken it seriously because he's a lame duck with about eight months or so left in office.

And I don't think he was really serious when he threw that out because there's a lot of steps you got to take and a lot of hoops you got to jump through to accomplish something like that.

And on the way out the door, you can't say, "Hey, by the way, let's merge.

See you later."

>> Well, I I disagree, Charlie.

I think that it was kind of like Sam Page unplugged.

Yep.

that when when you're when you don't have to when you're not running for reelection, that is the time that you can say things that that would be killers for you electoral wise if if you were to say, you know, all the all the voters go, I don't want that.

But when you're not running for reelection, it gives you a certain freedom.

So, I admired Sam Page for for doing that.

uh the and and and that that that doesn't mean that I favor a city county merger, but I I thought good for Sam for doing that, >> right?

And I'm kind of like that, Bill, but I was like, you know, 8 12 years ago, the other times it's come up steadfast.

No, this time I was like, and that's progress, you know?

I mean, that's a you you got to I'm feeling a lot of that.

I think I'm hearing a lot of people who hated the better together plan and thought it was so top down and pushed by moneyed interests who'd been in a back room deciding that Steve Stinger would govern us.

They're saying, "Hey, there's a way that we can do this, right?"

And it all comes down to the details, but could we get the right people to start figuring out how to talk about this?

I think there is some good grassroots energy and that makes >> We got another question.

Let's get another question, Alvin.

Let's get another question.

Hold that for next week.

We want to get two more questions and we're almost out of time.

Who's next?

>> Me.

>> Go ahead, me.

Way back there.

>> I I adore the show.

Most of the time I think the panelists are give both sides of the story, but on the data centers, you guys are so offbased.

I wrote my first computer program 50 years ago.

And one thing about business is they don't want to waste money.

If it's water, you're going to run out.

They're going to figure out how to get more water.

If it's electricity, you're going to run out.

They're going to figure out how to make more electricity.

Think of scotch tape, Velcro, uh, Post-it notes.

Those were all accidents.

And I'd like to hear more from Donnie Brooke, panelists, who can talk about the positives of data center.

It's always a balance.

It's those it's those pesky people with torches.

They do scare you out.

I mean, they do.

>> Okay, we have a question from the front row here.

This is Tino.

>> Hi.

Hi.

Um, this is for everyone, but mostly at Alvin.

Uh, >> oh, >> what is the best high school in St.

Louis and why is it Webster Gross?

>> All right, say it again.

I'm sorry.

>> What is the best high school in St.

Louis and why is it Webster Groves?

>> Okay.

All right.

I will agree with you.

Webster Groves is the best high school in St.

Louis area.

That is not Kirkwood High School.

Alvin's absolutely right.

The best high school in St.

Louis is in Kirkwood.

haircut.

>> And >> okay, if we're talking Catholic schools, I got to give a shout out to Desmet because without that school, there wouldn't be my husband.

>> I love you.

>> Well, then I'll go with St.

Joseph Academy.

>> Hey, that's all the time we have.

>> Academy.

Are you kidding me?

>> Oh, I'm so sorry to insult you.

>> No, that's all right.

That you'll talk to my lawyer later.

>> Thank you so much for joining us at the Sheldon for Donnybash 2026.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> Donny Brook is made possible by the support of the Betsy and Thomas Patterson Foundation and the members of NinePBS.