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>> Thank you so much for joining us for this special edition of Donnybrook.

This hour we go for one hour.

We will talk about the issues of the day in St.

Louis, but also we're going to remember and pay tribute to Ray Hartmann, one of the founders of this program back in 1987 who died one week ago in a traffic accident.

So, we'll get into that and more, but first, let's meet the panelists as always.

There she is, the media veteran Wendy Wiese along with another one of our founders, Bill McClellan of the Post Dispatch from St.

Louis magazine, the 314 podcast, and her daily newsletter, Sarah Fenske, and from the St.

Louis American, and this morning, uh, the big 550, KTRS, Alvin Reid, who was paired with, uh, Frank Cusamano.

You did a great job.

>> We always have fun.

>> You sure do.

>> Right.

Well, you know, we uh the top story this week sadly is that we lost uh Ray Hartman, friend, colleague, and uh we're going to get into that with a full half hour tribute to Ray at half past this hour.

So, don't miss that.

But Bill, you actually had dinner with Ray two days before he passed.

>> Yeah, Ray dropped by uh the house to chat in the afternoon and we talked and then uh he stayed for dinner.

Uh so it was a great blessing you know to see Ray the last time and of course we argued about stuff [laughter] you know but uh mostly he bragged about his kids how well everybody's doing you know uh Benjamin graduating from Rala into this very difficult economy and he's got a job with Boeing and I teased Ray you know I said you've attacked Boeing for here [laughter] and uh Belle is, you know, doing great at Case Western in the premed program and Ray said, you know, she never even got a B. And I said, you never got a B, Ray.

>> [laughter] >> And and I I I talked to them at the uh funeral uh yesterday and be before I spoke, you know, when we met and I said, [clears throat] "Is it true, Belle, that you never got to be?"

And she said, "Yeah."

>> I mean, it's it's remarkable, you know, at a school like Case Western, so she's going to be a doctor and uh Ben is going to be working at Boeing.

You know, they're >> they are a wonderful legacy.

>> They sure are.

Thank you for that.

>> They are the legacy.

Yeah.

>> They uh at his funeral, I was just blown away by how poised they were, just how wonderfully they spoke, what what they said about their father was just a wonderful tribute.

And his son's uh eulogy, I was like, "This kid is a great writer."

It's good that the you know, he's gone into computer science and has gotten a good job, but I thought this kid could be a journalist.

It was it was beautifully written.

I I thought for a scientist, both of them are people of science and they both did a fantastic job speaking to the crowd.

>> Yeah.

>> And they were such a perfect reflection of Rey's heart.

Both of them, you know, they were they were genuinely sweet kids um who were just so articulate and and brilliant and thoughtful.

And you know, for all of the celebrated people who were there yesterday to pay tribute to him and to show their love for the man, I think everybody around this table and everybody who was there knew that as much as we will miss him, that is his legacy.

And that is he was he was the he was such a proud papa bear when it came to those those two beautiful kids.

And they're no longer kids.

I mean, >> oh, absolutely.

I am Bill, you did a marvelous job speaking.

I said like and I thought like Bill was kind of like the, you know, represented not only us here at Donnybrook, but pretty much everybody else because you had family members, you had his close friend and Andy speaking and then Bill was kind of like the lay speech maker in that um he summed it up his Ray's life and not only individually but how the whole world looked at Ray.

Super job.

And as I told Wendy, I said like I kind of teared up at this.

Ben's first job is going to be at Boeing and my daughter's first day at Boeing is tomorrow.

And I said like, "Okay, you guys have been working maybe not directly together, but you know, just incredible."

>> Very cool.

Very cool.

>> Bill being and I'll be so fast, but Bill being the perfect columnist, he came back after he said, you know, Ray, you've criticized Boeing forever.

He said at the very end, but Ray really loved Boeing.

>> That [laughter] is I love that.

You did a fantastic job.

And you weren't the only one to pay tribute to Ry.

As it turns out, in Jefferson City, the General Assembly took time out of its day.

Uh we see in this clip, Ray Reid, a Democrat from Brentwood, paying tribute to the late Ray Hartman.

I rise today with a heavy heart to recognize the life and legacy of a friend, Ray Hartman, whose passing leaves behind a profound void, not just in our media landscape, but in the very civic soul of St.

Lewis Ray was a journalist, yes, but he was also a trusted voice, a friend to many, and a steady presence in moments when our region needed clarity the most.

Whether through Donny Brook PBS or the pages of the Riverfront Times, he had a rare gift, the ability to cut through the noise with wit, honesty, and a deep abiding love for the place we all call home.

Ray believed St.

Lewis was worth fighting for, not through volume or spectacle, but through thoughtful, principled conversation.

He showed us that disagreement didn't have to mean division.

That accountability didn't have to come without compassion, and that the role of a journalist was not simply to observe, but to serve.

And in that way, he challenged all of us, especially those of us entrusted with public office to be better, to listen more carefully, to speak more truthfully, and never lose sight of the people behind the policies, the headlines, and the debates that fill the ch this chamber.

>> That was Ray Reid, a state representative from Brentwood.

And um before the evening is over, we're going to see more haircuts uh that display.

So many hairstyles, so little time, >> but this is Donny Brook.

And in the tradition of Martin Dugan, we have to continue and discuss the issues that matter most to St.

Louisans, including uh one bill that includes a guy by the name of James Durell.

He's from Sulard.

And for years for the neighborhood association, he was spraying Roundup all over the neighborhood.

And then he contracted non-hodkkins lymphoma.

And he says it was the chemicals inside that Roundup.

So he sued uh Missouri jury gave him $1.2 million.

But then Bayer, which is now Monsanto, took this case all the way to the Supreme Court of the United States and they exchanged views.

One side saying, "Hey, Missouri has a law that says if you have a dangerous substance, it has to be labeled."

The other side, Bayer, said, "Well, the EPA said that it's okay, and federal law says that the EPA determines the labels for pesticides.

among other things.

Who side are you on in this case?

And don't you think that Clarence Thomas, who worked for Monsanto in the fungicide, pesticide, and rodenticide legal department in the 1970s, should recuse himself from this decision?

>> Well, that's the easy part.

I mean, that that he won't.

I mean, they he Mons could send him a check tomorrow and I don't think he'd recuse himself.

whether or not he should, you know, I sometimes think that people's personal experiences they they take with him on the bench and on juries and so I'm I'm not I rate that he's not going to recuse himself, but he certainly won't.

As far as whose side am I on, the these cases like this or the talmpowder case here where you have dueling scientists and they're all the paid by either side and you know it's all over a lay person's head, the jury, the only thing you have in the end really is the plaintiff has a defendant and whe whether it's Mr.

[clears throat] Dell, who's a seems like a great person and out there helping the community as opposed to a company.

You tend to if you're on the jury, I think say, "Oh, I think Mr.

Dernell, I'll give him a million dollars."

As far as like who's really right or wrong, I have no idea.

I have always believed that federal statute that federal law uh transcends state law and that seems to be the crux of of of this case.

Every single person at this table, every single person watching has had someone in their life if we're themselves touched by by cancer, by this insidious disease.

Um, so there's all the feeling in the world, but structurally there does seem to be something a miss when somebody who in, you know, lives in Missouri and partakes of, you know, enjoys a THC product and tries to transport transport that on a federally governed flight, you know, in in the air, they're going to get arrested because it's the it is you cannot lie in with THC in your possession.

So I I'm just confused about the structure of the legal argument.

>> I think when you know obviously somebody has been harmed or a court said somebody has been harmed.

I understand that it's an attorney's job to okay we're going to fight this but $1.2 million and you're bare and this could all be over.

You know, I just this one they have 100,000 lawsuit maybe 200,000 lawsuits waiting and they've already dished out like seven this one because they thought this one would get them out from under all of the other ones which could destroy this company.

So I think they very carefully handpicked which one they wanted to take up to the US Supreme Court.

>> Well, I will say this.

If the Trump administration or other administrations gut the EPA, we're no longer going to be able to rely on the EPA for scientific advice.

In this particular case, the substance is glyphosate.

And the journal which in the early 2000s had this seinal report saying that glyphosate is safe.

Well, that journal in January retracted the article because they found out that Monsanto was providing data to the researchers, which is a huge conf conflict of interest.

And there's the possibility that the researchers were getting paid by Monsanto.

>> Well, that's so if that is >> I really thank you for making the argument for me that I was about to make, which is if federal regulators are asleep at the wheel, it's a good thing to have some of these states come up and try to like do something on behalf of the people.

And I think, you know, maybe 10 years ago, I would have been really sympathetic to this argument that we have to have the feds take the lead on stuff.

The feds have shown themselves to be utterly incompetent.

At this point, the feds are showing themselves to be corrupt.

If we can get some states that can actually do something a little more sensible, I guess we've we've opened up this Pandora's box where it's like the states have to take the lead on everything because we can't count on the federal government to do anything about this.

>> Is that is that really a news headline?

We have never I mean look at the look at all of the the cases made about against FEMA.

So I mean all of these questions about the EPA.

When did the EPA become so revered?

That's what I'm trying to >> but well if you fire everybody that works there that means that some things are obviously going to slip through the cracks.

Um it's not wishful thinking.

It but Donald Trump's not going to be president forever.

Okay.

and whoever the next president is will either very loudly or very quietly reinstitute some of these people that have been fired because our government is not working right now.

>> But who's going to take that job knowing that the president after that might fire them?

That I mean >> I might if I get a good four years in >> Yeah.

Well, [laughter] you know, it's kind of funny >> and and as far as like where the truth lies, I I have a I know a farmer in New Douglas, Illinois who has contracted cancer and uh we were talking about and he said, "I think it's all the chemicals now.

You know, we're putting chemicals in everything."

>> Well, >> and you know, it's hard to argue, but I don't know.

>> Covering Well, the attorney for this Dell was Blair, who works for the Ander law firm.

Mhm.

>> And uh what's interesting to me, Sarah, is that you guys reported at St.

Louis magazine that the Ander law firm, in addition to the pre-reported story that a law firm is actually heading up uh uh $20 billion development in Ferguson, the largest ever in the history of our region, if not our state.

Right.

They're now buying up homes in uh nice Webster Groves, and some of them are not in good shape.

So they they buy a bunch of homes on the street and they're not taking care of them.

>> Yeah.

So, this has been sort of quietly going uh it's been happening for quite some time and my reporter Samir Knox, I have to give him the credit for this.

He heard this was happening, wanted to get to the bottom of it.

You know, the neighbors are saying we are not sure why Jim Ander has been quietly sort of pouncing on every home that becomes available on our street.

These were historically the homes that people could use to get a foothold in a place like Webster, your classic starter home.

Now, he's buying them up.

They're not really sure what he's planning to do with it.

He made the argument to Samir that he's actually helping Webster, that he feels like, you know, it needs a better sort of entry point in that part of of Webster and that he's keeping rent below what it would be.

And in his defense, Samir and I did look into this bigger picture of, you know, landlords are scarfing up what used to be homes for families that couldn't get a big McMansion.

And there is a study showing that sort of a a single landlord like Mr.

responder is a much better choice for families than these corporations.

>> You know, a better choice than corporations, sure, but the best choice is to let young families buy these homes.

When you have comp investors, whether they're big companies or just wealthy lawyers like Mr.

Oer come in and buy the homes that young people would traditionally buy and get started and maybe trade up a little later.

And instead, owner is buying them.

And when he says that, oh, he's helping with affordable housing, that that irritates me.

If he would say, hey, I'm doing it because it's a safe investment and I want to make more money than I already have.

I go, well, at least he's being honest.

But this this is a terrible thing to do to young families.

Buy homes that otherwise they'd be able to afford.

>> Well, I think he also bought the um the the old movie theater right there.

And and he had Ozark.

>> Yeah, the Ozark.

And he had remember the story.

He had he's got big plans for it and he's going to do I don't know if he's started on that.

>> He has since said that uh he no longer has big plans for that because they're just wasn't the desire from like the theater community that I think he was hoping would be interesting.

>> Okay.

Well, see >> he has abandoned that plan and well and maybe some of the other ones will fall because the you know the the some of the properties that are being rented have not been maintained.

At least it didn't sound like according to what hey no one ever washed a rental car.

[laughter] And I don't, you know, renters by and large with exceptions don't take care of their properties as well as people who own them with probably more than a few exceptions.

Uh but nonetheless, Alvin, I want to ask you about uh a choice that the governor has.

Mike Kio has to decide when to put that measure asking Missouri voters if they will reduce and eventually eliminate their income tax.

Where is he going to put it?

on the November ballot or the August ballot.

He wants that income tax down to zero.

If he wants to do that, where should he put the ballot measure?

>> Well, November or August.

>> Okay.

But from all uh you know from all indications November is going to be a fury of individuals that don't like the direction of the state, the country, Governor Keo and you know these petitions you know to get things on the ballot have 350,000 signatures when they needed a hundred and you know I think the governor will choose August because like I said all signs are pointing that it will not be a big night.

I mean, Republicans in outstate will hold their offices, but other than that, there's going to be a ground swell of, you know, we're not really happy with what's going on right now.

So, that would sink, um, the income tax.

>> I got to disagree with you.

I feel like the August voters, uh, we August voters, we few, we proud.

We are the high, [laughter] we are the high information VOTERS WHERE >> I VOTED AUGUST.

YEAH.

NO, you too.

I put you in this group and I feel like your high information voter is coming in going, "What is Kho doing?

this is ridiculous.

They have no plan to make up this revenue that they're just going to be chucking away.

Whereas your lowinformation voter who's more likely to turn out in November, they're going to go, "Oh, yeah, okay.

Let's uh let's just do it all sales tax.

That sounds great."

They say this thing polls pretty well, even though intelligent people seem dead set against it.

>> Well, I I I would say uh highly motivated rather than high information.

Sure.

I mean, if if if there's a particular issue that draws them to the August ballot, they might know little about Mike Kio's plan.

So, I >> I think I I think I'd go with November, too, if I were Kio.

>> I I don't see the income tax issue as a as a blue issue or a red issue.

It's a it's a math issue.

>> No, that's the math isn't mathing.

>> Well, put it this way.

>> Okay, I'm going vote Democratic.

I might just be compelled to vote against this because he wants it.

But there'll be a sizable enough number of Republicans that won't want this either.

And if you get 10 20% of one group on top of 80% of another group, you're going to win.

And that I think that's enough that would make it a loser, especially in November.

>> Wendy, the Post Dispatch has a five-part series that kicked off on Sunday taking a look at uh downtown St.

Louis and its woes.

And the first thing I remembered was in 1980 when John Carpenter was filming Escape from New York in downtown St.

Louis.

He told Harry Dean Stanton and Kurt Russell and Ernest Borgganine and Adrien Barau and she shared the story in her memoir.

He said, "Don't leave the hotel at night.

Downtown St.

Louis is too dangerous."

And this report started off with the perception of crime in downtown St.

Louis.

Do you think this report, which hopes to eventually rejuvenate downtown, will bear any fruit?

>> My dad was getting his masters in St.

Louis at St.

Louis University in in the early 70s in 1970 and um and he wouldn't let us come downtown to to pick them up.

I mean, it was it was those were difficult times for I mean, everybody, but every major metropolitan city, I think, has the same kind of cycle.

And then you have this this the salad days where everything is terrific and the Cardinals are they've got two three million people coming downtown and everything is everything is vibrant.

Is it vibrant Allah Chicago or is it vibrant Los Angeles or vibrant New York?

No.

But it's it's it's a it's a great vibrancy I think that we had for a very long time.

We do not have it right now.

I know I know you and I disagree.

I do disagree because I have articles in a whole file from through the years since I got here in 88 on the problems of downtown.

Charlene Pro of the Post Dispatch in 1996 had a story about how it's silent and shabby and >> nobody's coming to downtown.

>> Okay, I moved back and I was working downtown uh for a couple of years in 1995.

So, I was working there.

I'm sorry, but what was described in that article was not what I was living.

I was not afraid when I was downtown.

At lunchtime, you know, you'd go to the restaurants and if you didn't get there early enough, you might not have a place to to sit.

I I don't know.

>> And I remember when there were little businesses like and I got here in 1980 and in the early 80s like the in the like Olive Street building, >> right?

>> Like on the sixth floor there'd be a jeweler.

There were these little >> Was that the Paul?

Was that the Paul Brown building?

>> Paul was thinking the Paul Brown.

There were these little businesses everywhere >> and I thought it was a, you know, quite lively time.

>> Speaking of that, we just lost Bob Bmer who is the owner of Hamilton Jewelers.

He died just a couple of weeks ago.

He did.

He did the time thing during the ball game.

Yes.

Remember that?

>> I would have I would have speaking engagements like you did Friday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday night and at 11:00, 11:30 sometimes felt completely safe.

>> Your wedding was in downtown.

That's right.

walking through the stadium.

>> I currently feel 100% safe in downtown St.

Louis.

I know everybody doesn't believe me on this, but I'm wandering around there by myself, you know, after midnight and I think there's no problem there.

I think the thing about downtown, when I moved to St.

Louis about 10 years ago, Washav was popping and it was a lot cooler than it is now.

But guess what?

Now downtown West is popping.

It's a lot cooler than it was when I moved here.

And so when the Wall Street Journal did that whole story about the doom loop, I'm like, "Yep, you picked these couple of blocks that are very sad."

The thing about St.

Louis is we can't support the vibrancy of this entire area of downtown and downtown west.

And so as soon as something gets good, something else gets bad because there's just not enough urbanists here.

>> I I I I don't think it's going to come back because a there's not a constituency.

It's going to take money.

And other neighborhoods, there's like 80 neighborhoods in the city of St.

Louis.

They're all going to want the millions of dollars that'll be required to rejuvenate downtown.

And there's no constituency.

There's no businesses.

There's no residents.

Who's going to advocate for it?

>> I will say if you listen to what alderman are saying and listen to a lot of what us city dwellers are saying, we are in favor of putting a big chunk of money into downtown because we understand that for St.

Louis to attract people who are younger than I am.

They we have to have a better [clears throat] saying that for 40 years.

>> That's what the Post Dispatch story has been saying.

I mean Kevin McDermott who's been writing it has pointed out that you know yes there's a lot of problems but you have to start >> you have to try to >> we've been starting I remember when your colleagues at the Post Dispatch had a big round table uh at 900 North Tucker and Joe Edwards was invited and all you know the leaders uh what do you call them stakeholders and they were all coming up with >> change agents >> change this is the mid1 1990s >> right that's true but they always do the wrong thing they always think oh let's build something big when what people really want is a drugstore, a bakery, the small things, people on the sidewalk, whatever you can do.

>> Well, and there are people working on that.

There are, you know, I've written about this guy, Alex Oliver.

He's just one example.

If they can get, you know, block by block, you can make this thing cool again.

And yes, it should be out of the hands of the civic progress crowd.

>> We tried that.

We tried that with the McGawan brothers.

We tried.

We had we were we were we were the headquarters of corporations >> and we don't have them anymore.

>> We don't have that anymore.

So we don't have that now.

You gave me a block.

Alvin.

All right, dude.

You got a block.

All right.

And you 10% on what these buildings are.

What would you do it?

I'd said like it's going to be the swingest block in the Midwest and I'm going to have 24-hour security walking up down this street.

And on it >> means money.

No, you said you need to start.

I'm telling you where we start.

>> How are you going to do that?

Alvin Reed, you could do this.

Somebody said like, "Okay, Reed, I'm in with you on this block and we're going to make this block happening."

>> They did that on Washington.

They pumped federal dollars into there block one block will rob from the block that's currently popping.

That's the WHOLE PROBLEM.

>> THE PROBLEM WITH Washington Avenue, you're trying to serve too many different, you know, masters, so to speak.

I'm talking about on this block is going to be nightclubs and it's going to be bars.

That was Washington Avenue in 199 Park Village.

But how does Beiel Street work?

How does, you know, all these different places have one place in town where if you go there, you can hang out till 3:00 in the morning.

You're safe.

The police see to it.

But you know what?

You know what happens, Alvin?

Bring a smile.

And this is true because other neighborhoods aren't going to just give up.

They're not going to lay down their arms.

The South Grands, the Main Street in St.

Charles, the Kirkwood and Kirkwood, they're all going to continue to expand.

And that's great competition for >> No, no.

I can tell you what I can in 10 seconds.

>> Give me my block and you'll see.

You know that actually Joe Edwards said that back and and Mark Wright has said that too.

Let's divide it up and let people >> speaking of I think the loop trolley season starts.

>> It did.

It started.

You're right.

>> Hey, um this past week's been a tough one and a lot of you have shared your thoughts about Ray Hartman and we thank you for doing that.

We thought we'd share a few of those with our viewers.

Thank you very much for sharing your remembrances of Ray Hartman.

We will continue this program with another half hour.

So don't change that channel.

You can always find all of our programs on the Donnybrook channel on YouTube.

So, and please remember to subscribe by following that QR code.

So, we will pay tribute to and remember our great friend Ray Hartman as we continue on NinePBS.

Thank you for joining us.

Donny Brook is made possible by the support of the Betsy and Thomas Patterson Foundation and the members of Nine PBS.