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If it's Thursday, it's Donnybrook.

Thanks for joining us wherever you are.

Lots to talk about.

It was a very interesting week, but first let's meet our panelists starting with the media veteran herself, Wendy Weise.

From the Post-Dispatch, one of our founders, Bill McClellan.

From the 314 podcast as well as her daily newsletter, St.

Louis Magazine's Sarah Fenske.

And from the St.

Louis American and many radio stations and beyond, Alvin Reid.

Hey Sarah, we're gonna start with you because this earlier this week you talked to Bob Clark, the founder of Clayco, a Forbes magazine cover boy, a billionaire by many standards, and he shared with you his views that he's pretty optimistic and bullish on data centers.

This same week, Josh Hawley, the senior senator from the great state of Missouri, said he wants a nationwide moratorium on data centers, and so the schism continues.

Yeah, in fairness to Bob Clark, Hawley made this announcement after Bob talked to me about his optimism, but I think what Bob was reacting to is he was frustrated by what he'd seen in the media and this idea that, okay, the Democrats have taken over and this means they are gonna stop data centers.

He said they're not gonna do that.

That would basically destroy the American economy.

There's so much investment tied up in data centers right now.

He's like Democrats are gonna be practical about this.

They are gonna call for like common-sense requirements on them and they want these projects to be transparent and be good for the community.

Bob's of the belief that most of these data centers are good for the community and he says Democrats are gonna get out of the way for ones like that.

I have to say, I kind of think he's right.

I don't see Democrats as a whole trying to stop these.

I think where it gets interesting for him is that you have some farther-left Democrats who will try to stop them and then you also have your Josh Hawley's, your Republicans who are, you know, anti-data center, anti -tech.

You could see an alliance there that could prove pretty problematic for him, but Chuck Schumer doesn't want to stop data center construction.

That is not the mainstream Democratic thought right now.

Well, I'm a Luddite, obviously, and I don't like artificial intelligence.

I don't like data centers, but reading that interview with Clark, I thought he makes some sense that the Democrats aren't gonna want to totally crash the economy and this transparency thing, you know, Mr.

Clark has been a pretty good example of non-transparencies in the data centers, and so maybe there is a middle ground, but I'm certainly not enthused about them.

I'm always wary of too big to fail, like, oh we can't stop it because it would just wreck the economy.

Okay, I don't I don't want to wreck the economy, but at the same time, I don't want to give a free pass.

Case in point, you know, the city, so desperate to get a data center, supposed to have that green regulations for the one, and that got trashed, made their move too soon, because now if there's gonna be data centers, they'll probably have this, look, they got to have some kind of green quotient and this much power and all that.

There'll be a little bit more regulation to it as it moves, you know, forward, but the moratorium, I mean, that's kind of like Josh Hawley's showboat, like a national moratorium on data says we're gonna tell nobody in the United States they can move forward on their data center project.

And it puts Josh Hawley, a senator from the state of Missouri, in really close proximity to Bernie Sanders and AOC, and that might be something that's helpful for him as the dust from the blue wave or tsunami, you know, kind of settles, but you know, as time goes on, that might not be something that he's too keen on.

I thought it was a fantastic interview, and I loved it, because it was almost like he had just sort of, he just woke up from a sleep, and he said, well, we're gonna be a lot more transparent than we were, and gosh darn, I don't know why we weren't transparent.

We should have been transparent, and you know, I just think that I still think that the, you know, in terms of the environmental ask and the the resources ask for the return, and even though Bob Clark was very quick to say, look, these data centers are never finished.

They have to constantly be retrofitted and updated and that kind of thing, which is great for the construction guys.

I just don't see how this is gonna move into the Democrats' new theme of affordability for residents.

It's gonna fall in because the unions want it, and the unions love Democrats, and so these Democrats are gonna be pressured, but I'll tell you, you know, I haven't seen too many data center developers have data centers in their own neighborhoods.

The data center I visited this summer in Lowell, Mass., which is a huge behemoth in the middle of a residential area.

The owner of that lives in Chestnut Hill, Massachusetts, far away from, you know, these data centers, and so that's the big issue.

Who's gonna live next door?

The other big issue is what do they produce, and they produce this artificial intelligence, and the more time goes on, the scarier that seems to be.

I mean, and the more disruption in the economy it will be, and maybe it's, you know, like you're talking, too big to fail.

Maybe it's too big to stop, but it scares the dickens out of me.

Well, but Mr.

Clark seemed to be, it wasn't, it wasn't like, it wasn't an implied threat or anything, but it was, we can't afford to get behind on this technology.

But that's what he said.

Okay, but how about the employees at Square who were laid off by Jack Dorsey, and Dorsey, God love him, the founder of Twitter, said, quite honestly, we're getting rid of these people because of artificial intelligence.

We don't need them anymore.

Well, there's a lot of jobs that have, are going that way right now.

By the way, you've been to Dearborn, Michigan, outside of... Long time ago.

Well, you know, Henry Ford wasn't living next to the car factory.

I mean, so I can't blame these people.

Like, oh, I own a data center, but I don't live next to where the data is.

Well, they look really good from a distance, but I don't recall back in the automotive days everyone wanted a factory.

Well, right, I mean... Well, but they, again, they didn't want it right next door, and one of the things that Bob said, he said, you know, this industry has made some mistakes, and one of them was putting things too close to right up flush against people's houses.

He said, we need to move away from that.

There's plenty of wide-open space.

You know, you've got, like, Montgomery County, Missouri.

I was telling you that on the north shore of the Mississippi, north of downtown.

Why did we put... Why didn't we?

Why did we put a data center near Slough and Steve Smith's fantastic factory?

Well, they love the infrastructure there.

Like, the electric lines are apparently massive.

Yeah, so it remains to be seen if that one's gonna get built.

Speaking of Josh Hawley, and we were, Alvin, what do you think about his plan to have an hour of fasting on December the 15th?

It's actually prayer and fasting as a way to get people, I guess, back on track after last week's elections.

Okay, one, I guess I fasted from 830 this morning until, like, 130 because I didn't eat an hour fast.

I think most people could do that with ease.

But I'm not troubled by it, but this whole thing, like, we need to pray and fast because of what happened last Tuesday.

So what is he telling me?

He said, like, you sinners went out and all voted Democratic.

I mean, I find that insulting, okay?

Then, you know, I love you.

Then you're looking to be insulted.

You are looking, you are looking for reasons or ways to be insulted.

I don't know why we hold Christians up for this kind of derision.

All he's saying is that, you know what, we lost sight of where we're going.

And he's, if Christian Democrats had done the same thing, he would have applauded them or he wouldn't have said a thing.

It's just, there, people, people of faith, but it's not a judgment.

But he didn't say it two weeks ago.

He said it within 48 hours of this blue wave crashing in.

And now we got to pray and now we got to fast.

But that's what he's saying.

He said, we, as a party, have lost track of the people, the working people that we were going to help, the pro-life people that we were going to do more for.

You know, he's just, it's just a matter of faith.

But what are you praying for?

You're praying that these blue people don't destroy the country?

That we find that the Republican Party finds its way back to whatever it is they need to find their way back.

How can we say that Senator Al-Fayed, you know, he is embracing, he's speaking in Arabic, he is talking about Allah in his acceptance speech, and he's so happy and jubilant.

Why is that okay?

But when somebody like Josh Hawley calls Christians to say, hey, look, we need to pray, we know.

No, Wendy, I got to push back on this severely.

First of all, he is a Muslim, okay?

And he's just saying that.

But Josh Hawley, in the wake of the election, said we need to pray and fast.

And it's basically, his reaction is, after what happened Tuesday, we better pray.

Well, why do we have to pray based on what happened Tuesday?

He's a Republican.

You're not a Republican.

So he's not asking you to do anything.

No, no, no.

He wants to pray so we can send more immigrants back to Liberia.

No.

That's why he's praying.

And by the way, speaking of the Muslim fasting, that goes from sunrise to sunset in June at times.

Yeah.

Which is like 14 hours long.

Right, right.

It's none of this 60 minutes on December 15th after lunch.

And I don't, I still think that had to be a time rule or something.

I do too.

It could have been a time rule.

And a one hour, he would not call for a one hour fast.

No.

He's saying the Republic, help me.

Hey, there are some of us who do graze all day long.

He did call for a one hour fast in a full month from now.

It's like, oh, this is such an urgent problem.

We've got to get together.

Let's find 60 minutes to not eat.

I think it's laughable.

However, I am otherwise 100% on Wendy's side.

I do not think this is at all an insult to Democrats.

He's not saying.

Not at all.

He's not saying, we've got to stop these godless people.

No.

Although I fully believe.

Sounds really good.

Has said that and would say that in other contexts.

What he's saying in this context is, we lost a lot of people.

We lost a lot of people.

We lost a lot of people.

We lost a lot of people.

We lost a lot of people.

We lost a lot of people.

We lost a lot of people.

We lost a lot of people.

We lost a lot of people.

We lost a lot of people.

We lost a lot of people.

We lost a lot of people.

We lost a lot of people.

We lost a lot of people.

We lost a lot of people.

We lost.

We lost because we lost our way.

We lost our way.

Because we need to pray for God's direction, because we are now in the wilderness.

And the Egyptians that took over, whatever.

No, we we lost our way.

He's not saying anything negative about anybody.

Well, then why didn't he say it before the election?

Well, he didn't know they'd lost their way.

He didn't know that we'd lost our way.

I think some of these Republicans legit thought they were going to have a good Tuesday night, and seeing some of the shock of it, they could not possibly have gotten it.

Now we gotta pray.

We gotta pray.

I mean, you know, Josh should have obviously prayed beforehand, but didn't know that.

Hey, I mean, really, I mean, there's baseball players praying when they get a home run.

I mean, you know, I mean, if people want to pray, I think we just have to say it.

I don't know.

I would have felt more comfortable if he said, you know, I don't think Jesus would have wanted to deport 3,000 hard-working people per day, as this administration does.

And that's a lie.

If he said we need to pray as fast as Americans, then I'm good with it.

But, oh, in the wake of the election, now all of a sudden we gotta fast and pray, because we lost our way.

Well, now that we got your blood pressure going, Wendy, I want to talk to you about another topic, and that's Jim Onder, who is not only a developer, but a very successful attorney.

And this week, one of his former employees in a lawsuit alleged that he sexually assaulted her.

And then after, she blew the whistle on what she thought were some improper activities, because the law firm was generating some fake online accounts to create some negative buzz about Ferguson after his multi-multi-multi-billion-dollar data center project first went down in flames.

So she blew the whistle and then got fired, and so she's also claiming that she's a fired whistleblower against the law.

Jim Onder has a huge project at the old Emerson campus in Ferguson.

It's already got approval of the Board of Aldermen or the city council there.

These allegations, are they going to hurt it?

I don't think they're going to help.

I mean, I really don't think they're going to help.

And it wasn't just a little, it wasn't a micro-campaign to, you know, move the needle on this thing out in Ferguson.

He had ghost accounts set up.

It seemed to be incredibly organized.

One of the gentlemen that he put in charge of the social media accounts came up, you know, smelling like a rose and has a really big job now.

But what blew my mind was the CFO who spoke to, and help me with this, Lisa Fredericks was the CFO, is the CFO.

Of Onder Law.

Of Onder Law, as long as we're, I mean, as far as we know.

So when this, when Jane Doe, the whistleblower, came to her, as CFO, I would think this would be somebody who is in possession of her faculties, knows how to, you know, take care of a crisis.

But she said, oh yeah, there are all sorts of, you know, like she's at the beauty salon saying, oh yeah, there's all sorts of conversations about things that he's done to people and, you know, speaking out of turn and doing things that are sexually, you know, implicitly wrong.

And that's what really shocked me.

Well, you know, I'm not a fan of Jim Onder at all.

I've spoken poorly of him on this show before.

But, you know, I'm a little bit leery of taking these allegations in a lawsuit too much to heart.

I mean, because, you know, somebody claiming that somebody else said this and that this person didn't do anything, you know, I mean, it might be, and I'm not trying to stand up for Onder's character.

But there were people, but wait.

This isn't yet in a court of law.

No, wait a minute, Bill.

The mocking of black people happened with another person sitting there.

Several other people.

So then these people will be dragged down there and deposed and they might say it never happened.

But if I've got two witnesses to what happened, I'm very solid on my case.

Oh, I think so too.

And I think setting up the ghost accounts, I mean, that can be pretty well proven and I think this is going to kill the Ferguson idea.

I do too.

But as far as the personal stuff, I don't know.

I read a lot of lawsuits for my job and some of them just strike me.

I'm like, this is, okay, nobody overheard this.

This is kind of thinly detailed.

This felt like they were like naming names, witnesses, so-and-so was in this room when this happened.

Like this felt like this could be explosive.

Now, I don't know that it's going to be enough to stop this data center.

There's citizens trying to referendum this.

They're trying to see if they can get a vote of the people to overturn this.

It feels like what's happening with that, they're making it very difficult for them and almost daring them to sue.

It felt almost like Denny Hoskins style.

So that all remained up in the air as I left to come film the show today.

But I'm like, I don't know, it just seems like big money keeps trying.

When he allegedly was trying to make the point that, you know, Ferguson, it's just on the decline and this is, you know, that the message had to be that, you know, this is the data center is the only hope these people have.

And the outrageously racist remarks that he made I think should disqualify him.

Yeah, yeah, I'm not disputing that part.

I'm not disputing that part.

And I think that builds momentum.

But if there were some people that were kind of on the fence on the thing, I think that pushes more of them to against it.

I don't think it'll ever happen.

Well, it was four to three, including the mayor.

But the city is saying to the referendum crowd that it was an administrative action.

It wasn't a new ordinance and it was not subject to referendum.

Now, maybe the mayor and the board of the city council, I can't remember which it is, maybe they will have another vote.

But then they'll get sued like crazy by the well-known attorney, Jim Einder.

All right, this is, it's one thing if it happened of the many municipalities we have.

We're talking about Ferguson and I'm not saying we're going to revisit 2014.

But how would that look for St.

Louis if this moves forward and then the world gets a taste of, hey, Ferguson, where they had all, you know, all that.

And then after the $7 million Karen, his case.

So now a guy who openly mocks black people is now, we're going to OK this multi-million dollar project.

Did she have a recorder in that conversation?

These are the kind of things that only come out in court hearings.

He has done something interesting.

He's named Jane Doe.

The post-dispatch's Nassim Benjabani decided not to include the name.

And he's also claimed that she has a history of previous false allegations and a psychiatric history.

It's going to end up in court unless he settles outside of it.

If it was just her, I would say she had a problem.

But she's got at least two or three in the crisis who said I've never been talked to like that in my life.

He said it and I've never been talked to like that in my life.

Was it Judge Lassiter who denied the request to seal?

I thought for sure the judge would allow it.

Just because it's embarrassing doesn't mean I'm going to sit on it.

To Bill's point, the allegations are just allegations.

Why does Jane Doe enjoy anonymity when the accused does not in a court of law?

That's up to the publication and whatnot.

It's also up to the judge.

The judge can decide and they intend to push going forward to say that she should not be allowed to file a pseudonym.

Under a pseudonym.

That's something that Judge Lassiter is going to consider down the road.

And if it's a criminal assault, sexual assault, then she automatically Bill, I want to talk to you about one of the first actions by Fred Wellman the congressman-elect from St.

Louis who's going to Washington D.C.

and take the seat that Anne Wagner currently has.

He said in an interview, I believe in the Post-Dispatch, that he is in favor of impeaching Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth and I just think, oh no, not through this again.

I thought the Democrats blew it in 2021, 2022 and in other years when they took their eye off the prize and they went after President Trump, maybe even made him stronger.

What do you think?

Do you think that he needs a little more discipline in what he says?

I don't know if he needs more discipline in what he says.

I would prefer to see the Democrats start to govern and do some oversight rather than start impeaching people and I am definitely not a fan of Pete Hesbeth and I think we need a career military man in that role or woman.

Somebody who really understands the military culture and has been in for 20 years.

But I'll say this for Fred Wellman, he's got standing.

He went to West Point.

He served for what, 22 years?

I think it's one of the reasons he won.

And he said that he knows Hesbeth, which I thought, how's that?

It wasn't that which he had gone to.

He says he's never liked him.

I feel a little hesitant to say that I wish Wellman weren't doing this because like I said, he's at West Point.

I think this is personal for him.

I think there's a lot of people in the military who have been there a long time who are very frustrated by Hesbeth and his showboating.

If Wellman's going around willy-nilly just trying to impeach all these cabinet members, it's like okay, come on.

You got here by talking about you wanted to ban members trading stocks.

You care about affordability.

I believe he sincerely is into both those things.

That's more important than trying to get rid of the entire cabinet.

But I think military issues are going to be a big focus for him.

This is what I think is going to be so much fun to watch in terms of within the Democratic Party when you have somebody like Chuck Schumer saying, yeah, I'm going to win.

Don't worry about me.

I'm going to win.

I'm going to win.

And yet you've got the progressive the new people saying, eh, we're not so sure about that.

All the elected senators, Kansas, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Mississippi, as we understand it, all said, I'd be disappointed if we go this route.

The first thing that Wellman said on his speech, it was like insider trading in government.

They said that was his target.

Republican person is who launched this, let's impeach Ted Seth.

It was a freebie.

I doubt they go down this path.

On to something local.

Downtown St.

Louis, as a matter of fact, Sarah, you covered that this week.

We're talking about an old ramp on a parking garage for the old famous bar building which now does not look too good at all.

But Tim Gatiss of HOK has come up with a plan for this, and we're going to show it to our viewers right now.

Introducing the Luggenheim.

Imagine a new life for it, as a landmark, an attraction, a spark for the blocks around it.

Maybe it becomes a museum, a rotating art installation, a groovy downtown photo op, or something else.

Sometimes, the best ideas aren't built from scratch.

They're hiding in plain sight.

Luggenheim.

Do you think it'll ever become a reality?

I don't know.

I sure hope it does.

I will admit, I'm a little skeptical.

When HOK first told us, we've got this idea.

Would you like to write about this?

I'm like, I love this idea.

I'm all in.

I can't wait to share this with people.

But I was also like, is this really going to happen?

They have a very moderate price tag on this.

They feel like it could be done for $20 million or less.

That feels doable.

Then you start getting into the fine print.

Somebody has to run this going forward.

All museums need large endowments.

I don't know.

But it's nice to dream.

Shouldn't we at least consider it before the bulldozers come in?

Absolutely.

But I would check just with our luck in the city, let's check to make sure we wouldn't be violating any Guggenheim trademark by having fun with the name.

Because I love the idea.

I love it.

It used to hold my 67 Impala because I would park there when I went to Cardinal Games.

There could be one in the exhibit.

I would want to make sure it's structurally sound.

Maybe they've done that already.

I think it's a good idea.

It is.

To take an existing structure and make something new of it, I salute that.

And the thinking, too.

This is what has to happen downtown.

We've got to do something with these old buildings that are just sitting there.

That's the point.

Tim Gatiss, the principal architect there at HOK who is responsible for this is saying, don't tear it down because currently that building faces the wrecking ball.

If someone doesn't jump in then we're going to lose whatever we have there.

It's wedged in there, even though it's circular.

It's kind of surrounded so it has a natural place.

It isn't sticking out like a sore thumb.

It's right there.

The St.

Louis Art Museum has plenty of stuff that they don't have on display.

They could loan things to it.

I bet the acoustics are great so that you could maybe have some kind of instrumental concert series.

I love it because it's fun and it's out of the norm.

We've torn down so many interesting things.

If you look at Midtown, there's just vacant lots where there used to be really interesting buildings.

Maybe until we have a plan for a space going forward, we should keep what's on it.

That should be the rule.

The gravity thing.

We were talking before the show about this.

The gravity where you have a ball bearing but for 24 hours a day 365, one goes down and one always starts so it will always be active.

That was the idea.

Thank you, Alvin.

Luggenheim people.

You can always write us and share your thoughts about Luggenheim by writing to 9PBS 3655 Olive Street 63108 Don't forget those emails at donnybrook at 9PBS.org and on social media use hashtag DonnybrookSTL We also invite you to listen to us on your favorite podcast source the Donnybrook program worldwide and of course on the Donnybrook YouTube channel we have a program called Last Call and this week we'll be talking about the mayor and others heading to Rwanda.

Is it a junket or is it an important mission?

We'll talk about that and other topics as well.

So thank you very much for joining us.

We'll see you soon.

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