[music] Tonight we are reflecting on the career, life, and lasting impact of one of St.

Louis's most influential media voices, [music] Ray Hartmann.

got to [music] start feeling like we have something in common instead of trying to to [music] wall each other off.

Through decades of reporting, [music] commentary, and public discourse, Hartmann helped redefine St.

Louis media and create a more engaged and informed St.

Louis.

>> To me, the punishment that would fit the crime is losing the privilege, which is what it is, not a right, to drive.

In 1977, when he was just 25 years old, at a time when traditional newspapers dominated the media landscape, Ray co-founded the Riverfront Times, a free alternative weekly paper that focused on in-depth reporting, local culture, [music] and stories often overlooked by mainstream media.

When many publications played it safe, Ry pushed stories that reflected the full reality of life in St.

Louis, our successes, our struggles, and our complexities.

>> But as long as they have this exemption, and as they're talking about for casinos, they don't have my vote.

It's no surprise then that in 1987 when Martin Dugan needed a highly opinionated liberal voice for KETC's new public affairs show, Ray Hartman was his guy.

[music] >> Anheuser-Busch is not making charitable contributions to the NFL.

They advertise in the NFL for one reason, one reason alone.

They sell beer and the fact of the matter is St.

Having uh local uh opinion and discussion in the news is I think been a healthy thing and something that's been really embraced in St.

Louis perhaps more than anywhere else in in the country in terms of PBS stations.

cards.

I want to tell you this, they are disgraceful.

Their stuff supporting apartheid.

She was sponsored.

You know, you're fascinated.

>> We don't know what she paid these people.

>> For almost four decades, Ray Hartman, Donnybrooked his opinions, challenged those in power, advocated for human rights, and championed the first amendment >> is it's going to be dramatically cut back.

And I can't imagine, unless you're part of this sort of culture that says we need sacrifice, but not by me.

His point of view drew cheers and jeers from viewers at home.

>> A lot of people will come up and say, "I don't always agree with you, but you know, which is always kind of funny to me because I would hope nobody always agrees with anybody."

You know, >> but whether you shared his viewpoint or not, there is no disagreement that Ray Hartman used his voice in journalism, in print, television, and radio to engage the St.

Louis community >> to make people think about issues affecting this region and to make an impact by seeing the humanity in everyone.

As far as what my plans are, I think I I really did think today about uh Martin Dugan, the late great provocateur that we all love, Martin Dugan.

And uh the best main thing I could say is I could hear him saying it now.

It's time to move on to something else.

Wow.

Thanks to Anne Marie Burger and team for putting that beautiful tribute to Ry together.

And uh thanks to Dan Martin for that.

Uh >> I didn't know you done that.

>> I I hadn't seen that either.

It was a surprise.

>> I will say this, you know, all these years sitting across the table from Ray, I never really put it together until now that he started two St.

Louis institutions, the Riverfront Times >> and Donnybrook and he was on this show for 37 and almost almost 37.5 years >> you know and the thing about the Riverfront Times was that it didn't have a natural niche like you know in in Phoenix where I had been it was a very conservative paper and so there was a niche for uh the new times but here you had a very liberal paper and you had a very conservative paper there.

There wasn't a lot of room for Ray to maneuver, but somehow he made it work.

>> And what was so interesting about him, one of the millions of things so interesting about him was that he he his whole persona back in the day was that he was sort of the he was the anarchist, right?

He was he he was the anarchist.

He was here to shake up the status quo.

And he and he was, but at the same time, like every other Gemini out there, he was he was old guard.

He was so incredibly respectful when it came to Martin Dugan.

His treatment of Martin Dugan, no matter how deeply they were divided on a particular issue, he was so good to Martin.

They they loved each other so much.

And um and he was an Eagle Scout, you know.

I always I always love that because my dad was an Eagle Scout and and you know and turns out according to uh Andy Leonard Ray's father and grandfather were all Eagle Scouts.

So, >> he was a, as Sarah said, as we've all said, he was a mch.

>> And I will, I learned several things, um, you know, at his service.

And one was I did not know Ray liked to cook as much as he.

>> I didn't either.

>> That I I and I would say like, man, if I had known that Ray, we would talk because I like to cook, too.

And I just kind of like I didn't know that.

But a man of so many talents, one that I didn't, you know, know of.

But, you know, Ray went to journalism school and told the story of his days at the Maneater and how he was the editor, you know, two years, nobody had ever been the editor for two years.

But the thing was was that like Ray went to J school and he learned his craft.

So when he began, I wasn't living here at the time, but when he began Riverfront Times, I know people think like it was just some wild crazy and the personal ads is just going to be wild and all that, but no, he started with a base that he knew journalism and he was good at journalism and that's why he was so successful, you know, on this program, but definitely in print journalism because he knew what he was talking about.

>> And I like that his son Ben said he did his homework.

>> I know he did.

Yes.

Ben at the uh funeral talked about how his dad would be at the laptop at the kitchen table.

I knew he was doing this.

>> He was always on the phone [laughter] at the last minute.

It wasn't always me bringing up the rear.

It was Ray because he was on the he was on the phone with people getting the the story straight.

I will say I, you know, I knew Ry a lot uh less than anybody else at this table, but I think I'm the only person who regularly edited him for a couple of years.

And boy, Ray wasn't just this great arguer and like this businessman.

He was also a great writer.

I mean, you could eat off of this copy.

It was that clean.

Um, and you know, he came in with his own ideas.

He would sort of, you know, think hard about how he wanted to land it.

He, of course, had to talk through how he wanted to land [laughter] it.

But, you know, I've heard so many stories about him in the last week from people who had such fond memories of of the RFT back in the day.

One of the most amazing was from a librarian in North County and she said back when the RFT was just getting started, if the distribution guy who would drop off the stack of papers at her library was sick or whatever, Ray would personally be the person to drop that off.

He wasn't just somebody who was all showing off and you know he worked so hard.

No, the late Joe um, food critic for various newspapers here, told me that in the early days of the RFT, he and Ray personally delivered the bundled additions to restaurants and bars or wherever.

And Joe, thank you for joining us.

You had a beautiful tribute in the Post Dispatch this week to Ray.

>> Well, it was uh it was a hard story to write.

Uh, you know, going back to what you were saying though is I think the thing that uh one I'll miss these because I guess I got these calls before he turned his copy in.

I would get these calls from Ry where first of all he'd always start with I got some news tips for you and two or three of them would be tips there's no way you could prove.

>> Then he would start talking about a story.

So this last one and and and Bill at the uh service made a reference to it about Gabe Gore.

And so I'm on the phone and I always made sure that so Ray would call and I'd be busy.

I'd let the call go through because I knew I was never gonna get off in less than an hour and because we would just chew the fat anyway.

But so he goes through the couple of stories like ah couple of tips.

I don't know if you can get that.

And it's like no that's pretty impossible to get that story.

Then he go now this Gabe Gore thing.

Do you know he hasn't watched the videotape of the police shooting?

And I said I didn't I didn't know that.

[laughter] and he starts explaining it in detail and I said, "Wow, that's a good tip."

He goes, "No, no, I'm writing about that one."

So, [laughter] I mean, like, you know, because I always use a kid with Ray, no great reporter ever gives you a great story.

>> They'll give you a good story, but a great reporter is going to go, I got that one myself.

So, and and we ended that call though the last half hour talking about the Green Bay Packers, >> you know, and and and that was the thing is is that everybody looks at any of us as that this is all we do.

This is the sum total of our existence is talking about issues.

Ray wanted to know who he thought the Packers were who I thought the Packers were going to target in the draft >> and we talked about stuff >> you know that was not about major issues of our time.

It was like do you think we need more defensive backs?

It's like of course [laughter] we do you know and it was just regular conversation.

The the other thing about Ray was everybody, you know, he was very very very liberal, but he was a business person and didn't didn't get government money.

I remember when Mr.

Dewitt was trying to build a new stadium and to his credit, he went to talk to Ray seeking the support of the RFT and Ray said, "Well, you don't need public money.

You could go to the bank and sign a note for this."

And Ray said that Mr.

Dewitt said to him, "I'm not used to signing notes, Ray."

[laughter] And and here, you know, you he wanted government money, but he was the uh business person.

And here Ray was, you know, doing it all on his own without any government help, but he was the leftist.

>> That's what I mean.

He was really he was a throwback.

You know, uh, we are so pleased to be joined right now via Zoom, I believe, with Bob Costas, the legendary Hall of Fame broadcaster from NBC and beyond, who is kind enough to join us for the segment.

Bob, thank you very much for doing so.

Thank you, Charlie.

I didn't spend as much time with Rey on a one-on-one basis as the group assembled here, but I followed him both on the air and in the Post Dispatch and in the Riverfront Times for years and years, and I think I was a charter subscriber to his Substack, which was brilliant.

You know, you can be a good journalist and just be a serviceable writer.

The point that Sarah made a moment ago is very important.

He was a terrific writer.

It's one thing to make a good point, but it becomes so much better if you express it elegantly and persuasively as Ray did.

And yes, you can say that Ray was a liberal.

And of course, he got along with Martin Dugan because before MAGA came along, there were common principles and common understandings.

He understood and made no bones about what is the most important political point of our time, which is that Trump and MAGA are not over here.

They're just an extension or by degree more conservative.

They're an entirely different animal.

And he was unequivocal about the deep indecency and the deep assaults on common decency and what were once common across the board American principles that Donald Trump represents.

He was a crusader and I loved every word that he wrote and I texted him many times just to say at a boy, keep at it.

>> He would be so happy to hear those words right now.

I'm glad you did text him.

Uh, hey Bob.

Alvin Reid.

Um, >> hey Alvin.

>> I, uh, I wrote this week and Andy Leonard, uh, who spoke at the service yesterday.

>> Ray loved basketball and Ray told the story that he was the last guy cut from his varsity basketball team.

But you probably know that like Ray loved the Miami Heat.

He loved basketball and he he would want to talk basketball as badly he wanted to talk politics.

>> And it must have really hurt him that the spirits of St.

Louis lasted for only two years.

They did bring [laughter] me to St.

Louis, but they were gone 50 years ago.

actually this month.

Yes.

Marked the end of the spirits and the Hawks had left prior to that.

So poor Ray was left, I guess, just with the Billikens and the Mizzou Tigers.

[laughter] >> No, you know, I think he was a Hawks fan back in the 1960s.

What when did they leave?

>> 1968 was their last year.

>> 68.

Yeah, he grew up uh enjoying them on the court while they were still here.

Well, you know, coming from you, Bob Costas, because you are a wordsmith as well and uh for you to pay tribute to Ray is just uh wonderful because uh you know, I think in many ways we took Rey for granted because we knew him for you know, almost 40 years and uh sometimes it takes unfortunate incidents like this for us to really realize who was in our presence.

And so >> yeah, it it it's obviously a great human tragedy and the way it happened points up.

This isn't a great insight, but just the randomness of our existence, no matter how much we plan, somebody once said, "We make our plans and God laughs."

The randomness of this terrible tragedy.

And that's the that's the real most important aspect of this for Rey and and for his family.

But the loss of his voice is important.

Even if most people don't go to Substack, his voice was important and it resonated every time I read him.

He was so on point and he was so principled in everything he thought and the way he expressed it.

I will miss him.

>> I was going to say the exact same thing using those same words, but [laughter] now that you did, I won't have to.

>> Bob Kasus, thank you so much for uh joining us once again on Donnybrook.

>> Thanks, Charlie.

>> Thank you.

>> How about that?

>> Wow.

Yeah.

Uh, and he did tell me, Sarah, that you were a stickler as an editor.

[laughter] Behind your back, we talked about you.

>> I hardly changed the comma.

>> I don't know.

[laughter] That's not what he said.

Well, you know, that always because I always think, you know, you talk about Ray and I said, when you talked about it and when I first started on this show as a fill-in- everybody go, how do you get along with Ray?

Because figuring that our opinions would would differ.

I said, fabulously.

I mean, you know, and I think that Ray stood for was the epitome of, but I think this show also does too, and I've said it before, is is that you can sit here and disagree and then you can go out and have a hamburger and a beer with people and that it's over with.

And that was that was then and this is now and you move on and and it it it's there's more to people.

And like Bill said, he was sort of this capitalist businessman, which is sort of a right-wing thing, but then you're a left-wing in on these issues.

And I think that's what we're losing our grip on is is that a lot of people >> were conservative about some things and we're liberal about other things.

And and it's not always lined up in some very colorcoded line that we can just drag through.

I always thought that Ray also too, I was he loved talking about his stories when he was a newspaper reporter in Albany and talk about waiting for election results and just the boring grind that reporters do.

He loved talking about that stuff almost as much as he liked talking about owning newspapers.

You know, you mentioned uh that he would have disagreements then go have a beer or a burger afterwards.

I was surprised.

It wasn't until he passed uh that I learned that he had a yearly luncheon with John Lamping.

a staunch conservative former Republican senator from Missouri.

And he had a monthly luncheon with John Hancock, the former chairman of the state GOP.

And I don't think that happens all the time when you get guys from this side and that side breaking.

Scott Fawn.

>> What?

>> Scott Fawn.

>> He was also very very good.

Well, at at his wedding, the man uh who helped out was a Republican consultant whose name >> Oh, that's right.

I should know that.

>> Now, Ray's wedding was the sort of thing.

It was like Woodstock.

If you were there, you don't really remember it.

[laughter] >> You know, you remember bits and pieces of it.

It was like out of the Great Gatsby.

You got that train and the train took everybody to Kimswick.

>> It was >> and unbelievable.

the party continued at Kim's >> like a Agatha Christie novel.

It really was.

>> Was unbelievable.

Like that's that's one thing that like you say if you were there all right >> no matter where you are in America >> and somebody asked you what what's the best wedding you ever met Ray Hartman like my wife and I in unison [laughter] say Ray Hartman there's no like you was that the only wedding you ever went to like no no but that one stands out and I I've said this before I'll bore you with it again because I think it was it was telling at that wedding in lie of gifts they had all all contributions to the APA or paraquad.

Yes.

>> And they're asking for that right now in in [clears throat] his loss.

Uh I don't think we got enough of Ray's haircuts.

Do we have time to go to another piece >> so that we can see Ry through the years?

>> My dear friend Martin, who has been [music] I worked for at the Globe Democrat in high school, invited me to audition for the show and MClellan and we actually auditioned in Mark Viverett's kitchen.

>> Well, let's take a vote on it.

Do you agree?

the extent it has a good chemistry, it's [music] because we all feel good about each other.

Our differences are sincere.

But that's what democracy is all about.

Some of the stuff he says, I just sit there and want to fall off my chair.

>> The the name of the show is not patty cake.

It's not over the teacups.

And I want to remind you that I'm the guy who decides whether we move on here.

Remember the uh right, you can go from apples to giraffes.

I've never seen like [laughter] either bring Saddam Hussein And a person whose name I could mention but won't talks too much on the show.

>> And Martin Dugan's friends on the far right of the party actually held a press conference and said he cannot run in our party if he doesn't sign off on these things.

He was >> Martin is a wonderful, wise, warm, witty.

>> You know, he's a hero to all of us on the panel of Donnybrook.

He's the He's the best.

>> Let's go on to something else.

Ray Hartman, permit me.

>> You always want to let people finish.

Let me finish.

We heard what you said.

>> Let me No, you didn't hear what I said.

This is your boy Karl Rove talking about Tim King.

>> All right.

Now, wait a minute, Ray.

Why don't you put that damn thing away?

Do me a favor.

>> And every every week I check with Martin for almost 23 years to see if I'm still invited back.

And so far, so good.

>> I think we do economically [music] and spiritually miss it.

And I think that contrary to Rich Koster's predictions, we might as well get used to it because we're not going to see pro football here in this.

[music] We know this Ray Hartmann that for the first time in the history of the National Hockey League, the players have [music] struck.

It's >> just another It's the same as it was with baseball and football and basketball and all the other times athletes and owners are fighting to divide up a very big pie.

>> These guys are the most mercenary, bloodthirsty for the fans money >> and they're going to the state of Missouri talking about how this stadium which has just been refurbished in the last few years.

It's beautiful.

It's only 29 years old.

You know, people have bad hair days.

I actually had some bad hair years.

Ray Hartmann.

Ray Hartmann.

Ray Hartmann.

>> There's never been any vulgarity, obscenity, anything we're ashamed of saying on this show in 21 years.

And And I'm proud of that.

>> We got a few minutes left.

>> And you just uphold those.

>> We got a few minutes left.

>> Paul, that's the way I brought up this subject.

That's the way I posed the question.

>> But the other question was it I don't listen to your questions.

But the second the [laughter] second after 19 years, I'm not listening to the question.

Maybe the analogy is a family dinner table argument where you really get heated sometimes really it's not an act but underneath it [music] all when you leave you leave and you're still your friend >> somewhere up there Martin Dugan saying that's enough out of you Ray >> out of you Ray absolutely >> yeah I'll tell you you know um couple of things I know you print journalists have embrace raised Ray as a print guy, but every week for 37 and a half years on television, I got to call him a broadcaster.

>> Oh my god.

Yes.

>> You know, I would tend to I I would tend to agree except I know his love for obviously print journalism, but as I you know, I said like I don't think the show becomes what it has been without Ray.

And as I said, it it was his brashness, it was his intelligence, his hair.

it.

Seriously, I think he brought an audience that would not watch Channel 9 and they had something to come to that was as different as Riverfront Times was.

And I think without it, I think the show would have been fine.

But the show is special and owes a debt to Ray because I think that's why it became so special so fast.

>> It wouldn't have happened at all really.

I mean, the dynamic between Ray and Martin Dugan is what attracted people early on.

You know, you could tell that despite being completely different, they liked each other, you know, and Ray opposed everything Martin cherished.

But Martin liked Ray.

And people could see that and get it.

And so they tuned in again.

>> He he was always so proud because I believe him to be a closeted comedian.

Truly.

I mean, the man was proud when he would get a zinger and he would like practice it and then, you know, we'd get to we'd get to pick out the tie.

>> Oh, I am glad you said that.

>> And that he'd say he'd say, "Which one?"

I'd say, "Ray, you're gorgeous.

It doesn't matter.

It just doesn't matter."

He'd say, "Well, yeah, I guess you're right.

I am kind of gorgeous."

But he was he he was he he was so self-deprecating and such a darling man.

And I said earlier today to Greg, one of our family members here on the Donny Brook team, that he he really was by definition, he was a very powerful person in this town.

He was a very powerful person.

>> He was a very powerful person.

And if you have any doubt, think of the people who attended yesterday's beautiful service at at Temple Israel.

He was a very powerful person, but he was a very gentle soul.

And he was gentle with all of his friends.

And uh he was a gift.

He was a gift.

>> When she said about a comedian, one of the longest conversations I had when I and and I knew Ry on and off for years where I'd need to call to ask him a question about something he was involved in, whatever, but didn't really get to know him personally until I started filling in on this show.

And one of the first conversations we had was an in-depth, long, and would have been boring to anybody but he and I discussion about the comic genius of the Marx Brothers.

M >> and I found out cuz we were both and and we were like trading lines from movies and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, here's somebody who adores the Marx brothers like I did."

And so when they said, "How could you get along with someone like that?

How can you not get along with someone who doesn't recognize the Marx brothers [laughter] as the pinnacle of comedy or that America's real America's team is the Green Bay Packers?"

He understood these things.

And and and those are the things that friendships are based on.

Those are the things that people's relationships are based on.

>> Well, you see, when he liked the Marx brothers because he thought you were talking about Karl Marx.

[laughter] >> Good, good line.

Good line.

>> It was Groucho.

>> I uh talked to me I knew many people who work for him and I never found one person who was upset with the experience.

They all liked it.

>> The RFT uh before you got here, I think Sarah went after Ry a little bit.

They solicited, you know, anybody comments about Ray, especially former employees.

And I, you know, I know Ray was upset and I thought, well, this is a trashy thing to do to a good guy.

>> And instead of nasty comments, former employees were offended [laughter] >> that the newspaper was trying to get dirt on Ray.

And all of the comments were in defense of Ry.

And I mean, and that's a remarkable thing cuz people don't like bosses.

>> Yeah.

I think he was a remarkable boss from anybody who ever worked with him at the RFT.

You know, he would hire these quirky people who were so idiosyncratic but so talented and then he would just let them run.

He was the opposite of a micromanager.

People respected that.

And that's what made that paper so interesting in the years that he was in charge of it is he would tolerate idiosyncratic voices.

wasn't trying to make everybody sound inverted pyramid or tow the line that he was pushing.

You know, >> the late DJ Wilson >> really liked him, really appreciated working there.

And the late and DJ said like when Ray sold it, he told me like it it just he said it can't be the same.

And I always remembered that like like he was that much of it and we all knew it, but he said like it can't be the same.

And I, like I say, never worked for Ry like a a day in my life, but everybody I talked to over there said like it was a truly unique experience.

>> Well, I think we Ray is like so many other people I've met that I've bonded with, for the lack of a better word, but you boil down to, and I heard this line years ago that just said, I like him in spite of, I love him because of.

>> And I thought that was a great description of a lot of people who are dear in my life.

>> Oh, that's nice.

>> There's good and there's bad, but at the end of the day, >> thanks for all your comments tonight.

And we want to thank Dan Martin and Bob Costas and especially Ann Marie Burger, our director, producer who >> I'll be having lunch with Dan Martin tomorrow.

>> Oh, tell him thank you for us.

But uh >> in case you're not watching, Dan >> and Anne Marie, thank you so much for uh that loving tribute to our good buddy uh Ray Hartman.

And thank you everybody for joining us.

This program will be seen on YouTube.

So uh if your friends and family didn't see it the first time, it'll be up there.

Thank you and see you next week.