>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> TWO ISRAELI EMBASSY STAFF ARE SHOT DEAD IN WASHINGTON, D.C. WE BRING YOU THE DETAILS.

>>> THEN ANOTHER AMBUSH THIS TIME FROM SOUTH AFRICA'S PRESIDENT .

I SPEAK TO THE COUNTRY'S FOREIGN MINISTER WHO WAS IN THE ROOM.

>>> PLUS AS ISRAEL'S PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU VOWS TO CONTROL ALL OF GAZA UNITED NATION'S HUMANITARIAN CHIEF TOM FLETCHER TOLD ME ABOUT THE DESPERATE SITUATION FROM PALESTINIANS THERE.

ALSO AHEAD.

>>> NEW YORK TIMES INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER KATE KELLY ABOUT THE ISSUES PLAGUING AMERICAN AIR TRAVEL AND POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS.

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>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

>>> OFFICIALS FROM AROUND THE WORLD ARE CONDEMNING THE KILLING OF TWO ISRAELI EMBASSY STAFF IN WASHINGTON D.C. YARON LISCHINSKY AND SARAH MILGRIM WERE SHOT OUTSIDE THE CAPITAL JEWISH MUSEUM WHERE THE AMERICAN JEWISH COMMITTEE WAS HOSTING AN EVENT.

ISRAEL'S AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED STATES SAYS THE PAIR WERE "A YOUNG COUPLE ABOUT TO BE ENGAGED."

POLICE HAVE IDENTIFIED THE SUSPECT AS 30-YEAR-OLD ELIAS RODRIGUEZ , FROM CHICAGO.

THIS EYEWITNESS VIDEO APPEARS TO SHOW THE SUSPECT BEING DETAINED WHILE YELLING "FREE PALESTINE."

IT COMES AS HEIGHTENED THREATS AND A GLOBAL RISE IN ANTI- SEMITISM ALL THIS AMID AVERAGE OVER THE COUNTRY'S CONDUCT IN GAZA EVER SINCE THE HORRORS OF OCTOBER 7th.

ALEX IS IN WASHINGTON WITH MORE.

WHAT IS THE VERY LATEST ON THE INVESTIGATION , AND THE SITUATION WHERE YOU ARE?

>> Reporter: WELL, CHRISTIANE, THE AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED STATES OF ISRAEL HAS JUST FINISHED A PRESS CONFERENCE HERE AT THE CAPITAL JEWISH MUSEUM.

HE SAID THAT PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU AND THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP SPOKE JUST MOMENTS AGO.

HE TALKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE COUPLE THAT WAS GUNNED DOWN LAST NIGHT SAYING THAT THEY WERE A BEAUTIFUL COUPLE.

HE TALKED ABOUT THEIR ROLES AT THE EMBASSY.

BUT, IN TERMS OF THE INVESTIGATION, WHAT WE ARE HEARING IS THAT ELIAS RODRIGUEZ, THE 30-YEAR-OLD SUSPECT FROM CHICAGO, IS EXPECTED IN FEDERAL COURT LATER TODAY.

SO THIS AFTERNOON ON THURSDAY.

IT IS UNCLEAR RIGHT NOW WHAT THE CHARGES ARE GOING TO BE, BUT WHAT MY COLLEAGUES WHO COVER LAW ENFORCEMENT ARE TOLD IS THAT IT DOES APPEAR HE COULD FACE FEDERAL HATE CRIME CHARGES.

WE DID HEAR FROM THE TOP LAW ENFORCEMENT IN THIS COUNTRY, PAM BONDI, SHE CAME DOWN HERE EARLIER TODAY.

SHE DID NOT HAVE MUCH TO SAY OFFICE COOPERATION WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT OR ANYTHING ABOUT THE INVESTIGATION, BUT SHE DID SAY THAT RODRIGUEZ WILL BE PROSECUTED TO THE FULLEST EXTENT OF THE LAW.

ANOTHER SEVERAL QUESTIONS THAT WENT UNANSWERED REPORT TO THE ISRAELI AMBASSADOR MOMENTS AGO WERE ANYTHING ABOUT WRITINGS, A MANIFESTO, A CREED OF SOME KIND THAT HAS BEEN REPORTED, ANY CONNECTIONS TO ACTIVISTS OR TERRORIST GROUPS.

ON THOSE COUNTS THE ISRAELI AMBASSADOR DID NOT HAVE ANY ANSWERS.

WE DO KNOW, CHRISTIANE, THAT THIS IS A JOINT INVESTIGATION DOMESTICALLY BETWEEN THE METROPOLITAN POLICE DEPARTED WASHINGTON, D.C., AND THE FBI.

LAST NIGHT I WAS TOLD BY AN ISRAELI OFFICIAL THAT THE ISRAELIS ARE ALSO INVOLVED IN HELPING OUT WHERE THEY CAN.

SO WE ARE EXPECTING TO SEE THIS SUSPECT IN COURT LATER TODAY , AND AT SOME POINT UNDERSTAND BETTER WHAT ARE THE CHARGES >> I AM JUST GOING TO THROW IT OUT THERE.

I ASSUME ALSO MURDER CHARGES, BUT YOU'LL TELL US WHEN YOU KNOW.

BUT LOOK, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THIS AND PLAY A LITTLE VIDEO.

THERE WAS OBVIOUSLY EYEWITNESS --EYEWITNESSES.

PAIGE SIEGEL HAS SHARED OVER THE PHONE WHAT SHE SAW, AND OF COURSE THE SAD IRONY IS THAT IT WAS AN EVENT THAT WAS ACTUALLY MEANT TO BE TRYING TO FIND SOLUTIONS TO SOME OF THE CRISES IN GAZA AND AROUND.

SO LISTEN TO WHAT SHE SAID.

>> Caller: WHAT'S REALLY INTERESTING IS THAT THE EVENT WAS UM--A PANEL ABOUT ISRAELI ORGANIZATIONS, MULTIFAITH ORGANIZATIONS AND PALESTINIAN ORGANIZATIONS WORKING TOGETHER UM--TO GET PEOPLE IN GAZA THE AID THEY NEED AND NOT FALL INTO THE HANDS OF HAMAS.

>> EXPAND ON THAT A LITTLE BIT.

WHAT MORE DO WE KNOW ABOUT HOW THIS EVENT WAS SET UP?

A BIT MORE DETAIL ON IT-- >> Reporter: PUT IT ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, TRAGIC IRONY GIVEN WHAT THIS EVENT ARE PRESENTED.

IT WAS THE AMERICAN JEWISH COMMITTEE HOLDING AN EVENT AT THE CAPITAL JEWISH MUSEUM LAST NIGHT.

YOUNG JEWISH PROFESSIONALS COMING TOGETHER WITH YOUNG DIPLOMATS FROM OTHER EMBASSIES ACROSS THE CITY FOR AN EVENT THAT WAS ADVERTISED ON THE WEBSITE IN PART DEVOTED TO THIS QUESTION OF INTERNATIONAL AID .

THESE WERE INTERFAITH GROUPS.

THE SPEAKERS I UNDERSTAND WERE TALKING ABOUT EIGHT AROUND THE WORLD, INCLUDING SPECIFICALLY TO GAZA .

SO THIS WAS AN EVENT, AT LEAST IN SOME PART, IF NOT MOSTLY, ABOUT TRYING TO GET THAT MUCH-NEEDED AID INTO GAZA.

IT'S REALLY SORT OF EXTRAORDINARY HOW THESE EVENTS UNFOLDED.

THIS EVENT ENDED AT 9:00 P.M. WE ARE TOLD, HERE AT THE MUSEUM.

THERE WAS THIS GROUP OF FOUR PEOPLE INCLUDING THE COUPLE WHO WAS SHOT AND KILLED, AND TWO OF THEIR FELLOW STAFFERS AT THE ISRAELI EMBASSY, YOUNG AMERICAN WOMEN I AM TOLD, WORKS AT THE EMBASSY, WHO WERE APPROACHED BY MR. RODRIGUEZ.

THE COUPLE WAS SHOT AND KILLED.

THE TWO OTHER WOMEN WERE NOT INJURED I AM TOLD THANKFULLY, AND THEN RODRIGUEZ WENT INTO THE BUILDING , AND THE PEOPLE WHO WERE STILL INSIDE AT THE EVENT THOUGHT THAT HE WAS PERHAPS FLING THE GUNFIRE FROM OUTSIDE, PERHAPS AN EYEWITNESS.

THEY ASKED HIM HOW HE WAS DOING.

HE APPEARED DISTURBED, WE ARE TOLD.

THEY OFFERED HIM WATER, HE ASKED TO SEE SECURITY AND POLICE, AND THAT'S WHEN HE SAID THAT HE HAD DONE IT FOR GAZA.

AND AS HE WAS DETAINED, AND MARCHED AWAY BY LAW ENFORCEMENT, THAT'S WHEN HE SAID "FREE, FREE PALESTINE."

>> WHAT A HORRENDOUS STATE OF AFFAIRS!

ALEX, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> WE TURN NEXT TO THE FALLOUT FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP 'S CAREFULLY STAGED AMBUSH OF ANOTHER VISITING HEAD OF STATE, PRESIDENT, CYRIL RAMAPHOSA.

CAMERAS ROLLING, TRUMP CONFRONTED HIM WITH BASELESS CLAIMS OF A GENOCIDE AGAINST WHITE FARMERS IN HIS HOME COUNTRY.

>> BUT YOU DO ALLOW THEM TO TAKE LAND?

>> NO NO NO--NO BUDDY CAN TAKE LAND--BACK AND THEN THEY KILL THE WHITE FARMER, AND WHEN THEY KILL THE WHITE FARMER NOTHING HAPPENS TO THEM.

>> NO.

THERE--THERE IS CRIMINALITY IN OUR COUNTRY.

PEOPLE WHO DO GET KILLED UNFORTUNATELY THROUGH CRIMINAL ACTIVITY MAJORITY OF THEM ARE BLACK PEOPLE.

AND WE HAVE NOW--EXPECT THE FARMERS--THE FARMERS ARE NOT BLACK.

YOU SAY THAT'S GOOD OR BAD BUT THE FARMERS ARE NOT BLACK.

>> THERE IS NO SUCH WHITE GENOCIDE AND CRIME AGAINST WHITE FARMERS REPRESENTS A TINY FRACTION OF THE COUNTRY'S OVERALL CRIME.

THE SCENE WAS REMINISCENT OF PRESIDENT, VLADIMIR ZELENSKYY .

FOR OTHER WORLD LEADERS WATCHING FROM AFAR, IS A DIPLOMATIC VISIT TO AMERICA HOWEVER NEEDED BECOMING MORE OF A RISK THAN A BOOM?

RONALD SOUTH AFRICA'S FOREIGN MINISTER WAS IN THE ROOM, AND HE JOINS ME NOW IN AN EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW FROM WASHINGTON, D.C. FOREIGN MINISTER, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

THIS CAN'T BE EASY FOR YOU TO HAVE WITNESSED, ENDURED, OR TALK ABOUT PUBLICLY FOR ALL THE SENSITIVITIES.

BUT, WHAT WERE YOU THINKING WHEN IT ALL SORT OF STARTED TO GO SOUTH SO TO SPEAK ?

>> YEAH, THANK YOU VERY MUCH TO THE VIEWERS FIRSTLY.

LET ME CONVEY ON BEHALF OF THE SOUTH AFRICAN GOVERNMENT OUR CONDOLENCES TO THE GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL FOR THE TWO YOUNG DIPLOMATS THAT WERE GUNNED DOWN IN WASHINGTON.

WE WILL CONTINUE TO CALL FOR PEACE IN GAZA AND THE WEST BANK.

INDEED, IT WAS NOT AN EASY OUTING.

WE HAD EXPECTED THAT IT WOULD BE ROBUST, IT WOULD BE ENGAGING.

AND THEN, IT WILL INVOLVE EFFECT.

SO WHAT WENT THROUGH OUR MIND WAS THAT WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO ACHIEVE THE END GOAL A RESET OF ENGAGEMENTS BETWEEN WASHINGTON AND THE GOVERNMENT OF SOUTH AFRICA AND WE LEAVE WE WILL ACHIEVE THAT, BECAUSE THERE WAS ENGAGEMENT AFTER THE OVAL OFFICE INTERACTION WITH THE MEDIA AND THE PUBLIC.

THERE WAS A DEEPER ENGAGEMENT DURING LUNCH TO RESET THE BILATERAL ENGAGEMENTS --G 20 BUT ALSO ON THE ISSUES THAT IMPACT TRADE BETWEEN THE TWO COUNTRIES PARTICULARLY BECAUSE THE TARIFFS TECHNICALLY NULLIFIED A PROGRAM , OUR MAIN GOAL TO BILATERAL RELATIONS AND WE OUR PRESIDENT SAYING BEHIND THE SCENE THIS MATTER MUST BE ENGAGED AND IN EFFECT WOULD BE PUT ON THE TABLE.

AND STAFF WOULD BE PROVIDED AS WE ARTY SAID, IN SOUTH AFRICA IT IS A UNFORTUNATE NUMBER IN TERMS OF DEATH -- LAST YEAR 225 FARMER --FARM ATTACKS.

MAJORITY BLACK 55 WHO ARE MAJORITY WHITE, SO THAT IS A PERIOD OF FOUR YEARS.

AND THAT DOES NOT REPRESENT A GENOCIDE .

BUT IT IS STILL UNFORTUNATE IT HAPPENED , BECAUSE ANY CRIME, IT IS THAT'S WHY THE PRESIDENT THEN STATED DEALING WITH THE CRIME SITUATION THAT WE NEED TO RESPOND TO ALL POPULATION IRRESPECTIVE OF RACE.

BLACKS ARE MOST AFFECTED BY THIS CRIME.

THAT WAS DISCUSSED DURING LUNCH.

>> FOR WHATEVER REASON PRESIDENT TRUMP IS HUNG UP FOCUSED ON THIS FALSE CLAIM OF A WHITE GENOCIDE.

I WONDER, IF YOU WERE ABLE TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF WHO TOLD -- OUT OF VIEW OF THE PRESS BUT THE PICTURES HE SHOWED YOU ON THE VIDEO OF THE ROAD OF WHITE CROSSES WHICH HE CLAIMED WERE HOWEVER MANY DOZENS OF WHITE FARMERS WERE BURIED THERE UNDER THOSE CROSSES.

THIS IS WE HAVE ALL FACT CHECKED IT WAS A PROTEST AGAINST SOME KILLINGS, AND THEY USED THOSE MARKERS AS A PROTEST.

IS THAT CORRECT?

>> YES, THAT'S CORRECT.

IT WAS A PROTEST I THINK ABOUT SEVEN YEARS AGO ON RELATIONS TO FARM ATTACKS.

ABOUT TWO DAYS AFTER ONE OF THE FORM WORKHOUSE OR DWELLER WAS BURIED ALIVE IN A COFFIN WHITE FARMERS.

SO THIS ISSUE DOES EVOKE EMOTIONS IN SOUTH AFRICA , AND THERE IS A RELATION IN RELATION TO FROM ATTACKS BUT ALSO CRIME IN GENERAL WHICH DISPROPORTIONATELY AFFECTS SOUTH AFRICANS, AND THAT'S WHY THERE IS WORK THE GOVERNMENT IS DOING.

ANY PARTNERSHIP REMAINS WELCOME TO RESPOND TO THESE CHALLENGES.

BUT, AS YOU WILL HAVE SEEN AND PICTURE WAS THAT WE NEED TO RESET BILATERAL RELATIONS WITH THE U.S. ANY DEGENERATION AT THAT LEVEL AFFECTED STRATEGY RESET SO WE CONTINUED WITH ENGAGEMENT --ENDED ON A POSITIVE NOTE .

THE LUNCH WAS A VERY POSITIVE AND PRODUCTIVE, AND I THINK THERE HAS BEEN SOME KIND OF A COMMON GROUND ESTABLISHED FOR RE-ENGAGEMENT IN REGARDS TO POSITIVE MESSAGE U.S. INVOLVEMENT WITH G-20 INVOLVING THAT TRUMP REMAINS WELCOME TO ATTEND THE LEADERS ' SUMMIT IN NOVEMBER.

>> WAS GOING TO BE INTERESTING IS WHETHER HE DOES AND WHETHER HE SENT A DELEGATION OR NOT AND WHETHER HE RESTARTS USAID OR BILATERAL AGREEMENTS AND AID TO SOUTH AFRICA.

I NEED TO ASK YOU THOUGH ABOUT ONE OF HIS OTHER BIG BEEFS .

HE HAS ALLOWED INTO THE UNITED STATES THE ONLY BASIC REFUGEES WHO HAVE BEEN ALLOWED INTO THE UNITED STATES UNDER HIS ADMINISTRATION.

WE KNOW WELL YOU TELL ME IT IS REALLY INTERESTING IF YOU GO TO THE END OF APARTHEID AND WHAT NELSON MANDELA NEGOTIATED, WHITE AFRIKANERS WERE NEVER PUNISHED.

THERE WAS NEVER RETRIBUTION FOR APARTHEID, AND IN FACT THEY WERE ALLOWED TO ABSOLUTELY TAKE PART IN THE FUTURE OF THE COUNTRY AND POLITICS AND BUSINESS AND EVERYTHING.

AND WE UNDERSTAND THAT BEING JUST 7% OF THE POPULATION WHITE FARMERS STILL OWN ABOUT HALF OF SOUTH AFRICA'S LANDMASS , OF ITS AREA.

SO, WHAT IS ABOUT LAW THAT YOU DID EARLIER ABOUT EXPROPRIATION, AND WHAT IS THE RETURN FOR THAT?

>> YEAH .

NOT ONLY JUST A 50%, IT'S ABOUT 70% OF FARM LAND IN SOUTH AFRICA PRODUCTIVE FARMLAND IS STILL IN THE HANDS OF WHITE SOUTH AFRICANS IN PARTICULAR WHITE AFRIKANERS .

SO AS WE ALREADY SAID INDEED TO THE PROJECT OF RECONCILIATION BUILDING STARTED BY FORMER PRESIDENT MANDELA CONTINUED EVEN IN THE PAST -- REDISTRIBUTION.

CONSTITUTIONAL IMPERATIVE TO REDISTRIBUTE THE LAND TO REFLECT DEMOGRAPHICS OF THE COUNTRY.

THE LAW YOU ARE REFERRING TO, IT'S AN EXPROPRIATION ACT THAT THE PRESIDENT PASSED.

AND THIS LAW WAS REPEALING IN 1975 ACT WHICH WAS ENACTED UNDER APARTHEID WITH KIND OF PARAMILITARIES AIDING APARTHEID GOVERNMENT IN TERMS OF CONTINUE TO TAKE LAND FROM BLACK SOUTH AFRICANS.

BUT THIS WAS NOW AN AMENDMENT OR A REPEAL OF THAT LAW WHICH THEN PUT IN TERMS OF HOW EXPROPRIATION WITHOUT COMPOSITION WHICH IS A CONSTITUTIONAL IMPERATIVE MUST BE UNDERTAKEN.

AND EXPROPRIATION DOES HAPPEN U.S. AS YOU HEARD PRESIDENT REFERRING TO THAT, AND SUFFICIENT ADMINISTRATIVE PROCESSES, AND IT IS NOT -- IT IS A PROCESS THAT IS GOVERNED BY OUR LAW JUST LIKE IN ANY OTHER COUNTRY.

BUT, BECAUSE OF OUR UNIQUE HISTORY OF LAND DISPOSITION, FROM BLACK SOUTH AFRICANS IN THE PAST THERE IS A CONTEXT OF LAND REFORM WITHIN THIS LOT WHICH IS A CONSTITUTIONAL IMPERATIVE AND THIS HAS ALSO INCLUDING IN GENEVA BECAUSE WE DO SUBJECT HOURS FIVE-- OURSELVES STATED HUMAN RIGHTS IN GENEVA HAS CONFIRMED THIS IS INDEED A NATIONAL IMPERATIVE TO REFLECT THE DEMOGRAPHICS OF SOUTH AFRICA, AND THIS WILL CONTINUE TO ENGAGE WITH THE U.S. , SO THERE IS NO LAW AIMED TO PERSECUTE ANY WHITE SOUTH AFRICAN, BUT IT'S IN THE SPIRIT OF TRANSFORMATION, WHICH IS A CONSTITUTIONAL IMPERATIVE, AND THAT'S WHY YOU WILL HAVE SEEN ADMINISTER --ONE OF THE BIGGEST LANDOWNERS IN SOUTH AFRICA.

NO ONE HAS SEIZED HIS LAND.

THE THEY STILL HAVE THEIR LAND.

IT HAS NOT BEEN SEIZED BY ANYONE.

IF THERE IS ANY PROCESS IT IS A PROCESS GOVERNED BY THE LAW IT'S DONE TO THE PROCESSES CONSTITUTION ALLOW WITH SUFFICIENT SAFEGUARDS .

SO THERE IS NO GENOCIDE OR SEIZURE OR TAKING OVER OF THE LAND.

>> FOR WANT OF A BETTER TERM YOU HAD YOUR WHITE ALLIES IN THE ROOM WITH YOU, THEY ARE IN A COALITION GOVERNMENT WITH YOU.

THE DEMOCRATIC ALLIANCE.

AND, DO YOU THINK --YOU EXPECTED SOMETHING.

YOU DIDN'T OF THIS VIDEO WAS GOING TO GO UP, BUT YOU EXPECTED SOMETHING, AND ELON MUSK WAS THERE.

DO YOU THINK-- DO YOU THINK-- WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THIS WHERE DO YOU THINK THE GENESIS OF THESE FALSE IDEAS THAT HAVE BEEN PUT INTO PRESIDENT TRUMP'S HEAD, WHICH ACTUALLY HE WAS TALKING ABOUT IN HIS FIRST TERM AS WELL.

WHEN YOU MENTIONED EMINENT DOMAIN WE KNOW BECAUSE WE HAVE TALKED TO HIM, WE HAVE SEEN STORIES OF PEOPLE WHO LIVE ALONG THE U.S. SOUTHERN BORDER SOME OF THEIR LAND HAS BEEN TAKEN IN THE EMINENT DOMAIN FOR THE TRUMP WALL THERE.

SO, DO YOU THINK HE JUST DOESN'T LIKE YOUR PRESIDENT?

OR JUST DOESN'T LIKE SOUTH AFRICA?

OR WHAT DO YOU THINK IT IS?

>> YEAH , WE REALLY DON'T WANT TO SPECULATE.

BUT, THERE HAS BEEN A GROUP OF ORGANIZATIONS IN SOUTH AFRICA THAT HAVE BEEN SPREADING THESE FALSE -- MISINFORMATION.

IT'S MOSTLY IN THEIR WEBSITES AND SO FORTH.

BUT, WE ARE GLAD THERE'S ALSO A HUGE GROUP OF AFRIKANERS, SOUTH AFRICANS, THAT HAVE SPOKEN AGAINST THIS, THAT THERE IS NO GENOCIDE, IT'S NOT TRUE, IT'S NOT FACTUAL.

THERE'S A BIG MOVEMENT IN SOUTH AFRICA WHICH HAS NOW EVOKED PATRIOTISM.

I THINK THAT'S THE REASON YOU SAW WHO WERE THERE ACCEPTING INVITATION TO COME WITH THE PRESIDENT , PRESIDENT TRUMP REQUESTED THAT HE SHOULD COME WITH THEM, BECAUSE THEY ARE PATRIOTIC SOUTH AFRICANS, AND THERE ARE MANY MOVEMENTS IN SOUTH AFRICA OF WHITE SOUTH AFRICAN RUNNERS THAT THERE IS CHALLENGES IN OUR COUNTRY, BUT THE CONSTITUTIONAL PROVISIONS AND OUR ARCHITECTURE DOES ALLOW AN ENGAGEMENT.

IN REGARDS TO THE SONG THAT WAS PLAYED , THERE WAS ENGAGEMENT ABOUT IT THAT THERE IS CONTEXT HISTORICAL CONTEXT THAT THE SONG WAS SUNG DURING THE STRUGGLE AGAINST APARTHEID AND ALSO BY MEMBERS IT DOES NOT LITERALLY MEAN AND SO FORTH AND IT HAS NEVER INCITED ANY TYPE OF VIOLENCE.

IT MAY NO LONGER REALLY BE RELEVANT AT THIS STAGE, BUT IT IS A STONE THAT HAS GOT HISTORICAL CONTEXT.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU LET ME INTERRUPT YOU JUST ONE MINUTE.

BECAUSE THAT VIDEO WAS LIKE THREE MINUTES LONG OF JULIUS WHO WAS EXPELLED BY YOUR ANC AND HAS A SMALL PARTY AND IS A RABBLE-ROUSER, AND HE WAS, HE WAS BETRAYED AS BEING PART OF YOUR GOVERNMENT.

PRESUMABLY THAT'S WHY PRESIDENT TRUMP'S STAFF PUT THAT VIDEO OUT.

I AM JUST WONDERING, I AM NOT SURE THAT HE KNEW HE WAS NOT IN YOUR GOVERNMENT.

I'M NOT SURE HE KNEW THOSE WHITE CROSSES WERE NOT WHAT HE SAID THEY WERE.

SOME OF THE PAGES THAT HE HANDED TO YOUR PRESIDENT WERE BASICALLY NOT EVEN ABOUT SOUTH AFRICA.

WERE YOU SURPRISED BY THE LEVEL OF RESEARCH HIS AIDES HAD DONE AT SUCH A HIGH LEVEL MEETING BETWEEN TWO PRESIDENTS?

THIS IS EASILY DEBUNKED STUFF, BASIC FACT CHECKING.

>> OBVIOUSLY FROM OUR SIDE TODAY AN OLD WAS INTERACTION WITH RECITING --RESETTING BILATERAL RELATIONS.

WE HAD TO TAKE STRATEGIC DECISION WHETHER WE WANTED A MEETING TO COLLAPSE ON THE BASIS OF A NONEXISTING ISSUE OR NOT.

AND WE WANTED THAT THIS IS YOU HEARD OUR PRESIDENT BEHIND CLOSED DOORS THE US ISSUES WILL BE ENGAGED, AND WE ARE READY TO ENGAGE ON THEM.

AND THERE WAS INDEED CONTEXT PROVIDED WITH REGARDS TO THE SONG THAT HISTORICAL CONTEXT IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT IS SUNG NOW INCITING ANY FORM OF VIOLENCE.

AND AS WE HAVE ALREADY SAID THE PERSON ON THE VIDEO IS NOT PART OF THE GOVERNMENT , AND THAT IS NOT GOVERNMENT POLICY TO KILL .

THAT SOUTH AFRICA BELONGS TO ALL WHO LIVE IN IT.

IT IS UNITED IN OUR DIVERSITY, BUT THE CONSTITUTION IS VERY CLEAR THERE MUST BE TRANSFORMATION IN OUR COUNTRY, AND THAT'S WHY THERE MUST BE TRANSFORMATIVE LAWS AND RELATIONS TO THE LAND AND THE VARIOUS ASPECT OF OUR SOCIETY.

SO THAT IS WHAT WE ARE DEALING WITH IN THE VARIOUS LAWS OF EXPIRATION AND OTHER LAWS.

>> OKAY I WANT TO ASK YOU ONE MORE FINAL QUESTION, BECAUSE YOU ARE CLEARLY TRYING TO RESET A BILATERAL RELATIONSHIP WITH AN IMPORTANT ALLY.

YOU NEED THE UNITED STATES FOR ALL THAT YOU GET AND TRADE AND UNITED STATES.

BUT, A LOT OF THE ANGST, A LOT OF THE TENSION BETWEEN YOU ALSO STEMS FROM THE GENOCIDE CASE THAT YOU FILED AGAINST ISRAEL FOR THE WAR IN GAZA.

IT'S STILL ONGOING.

AT THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE , AND WAS FIRST BROUGHT SHORTLY AFTER THE HAMAS INVASION OF 2023.

DO YOU THINK THAT ALSO IS PART OF THIS ONGOING HOSTILITY?

OR DO YOU THINK YOU WERE ABLE TO TALK ABOUT THAT AND COME TO SOME KIND OF RESOLUTION WITH THE PRESIDENT AND HIS PEOPLE?

PRESIDENT TRUMP?

>> NO, IT NEVER AROSE DURING THE LUNCH DISCUSSION.

BUT WE WERE GLAD THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HIMSELF DID SAY THAT LET'S ALLOW THE LAW TO TAKE ITS COURSE .

LET IT HAVE A LIFE OF ITS OWN.

THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE , MAKE THE SO WE TAKE IT FROM THERE.

AND THEN NOT ONLY ON THIS MATTER, I THINK EVEN ON THE GENOCIDE MATTER LAST QUESTION WHEN IT WAS ASKED HE MENTIONED HE HAS NOT YET MADE UP HIS MIND ABOUT THIS ISSUE OF GENOCIDE.

SO WE DO THINK THAT THERE IS ROOM TO RESET BILATERAL RELATIONS BETWEEN THE COUNTRIES.

AS YOU'VE ALREADY SAID INDEED AMERICA IS OUR SECOND BIGGEST TRADING PARTNER WITH 600 COMPANIES INVESTED IN OUR ECONOMY ON VARIOUS TECHNOLOGIES INCLUDING ON ISSUES OF VERTICAL MINERALS AND ISSUES OF BENEFICIAL IN OUR COUNTRY IMMENSELY INTO OUR ECONOMY AND ALSO TO CREATE JOBS, SO THIS RELATIONSHIP IS IMPORTANT, AND ALSO IT'S A TWO WAY STREET PRESIDENT ALSO INVESTED IN THE U.S. ECONOMY.

SO FOR US THE MAIN TRUST, AND THAT'S WHAT THE PRESIDENT SAID, IS THAT WE NEED DIRECT INVESTMENT TO GROW THE ECONOMY, TO CREATE JOBS.

CHALLENGE OF UNEMPLOYMENT THAT LEADS TO INABILITY AND ALSO LEADS TO HIGH LEVEL OF CRIME .

AND THAT'S WHAT WE ALL HAVE TO DEAL WITH TO RESPOND TO THE CRIME SITUATION THAT AFFECTS ALL SOUTH AFRICANS.

>> YES INDEED WELL LISTEN WE APPRECIATE YOU GIVING US YOUR ON THE INTERVIEW.

WE APPRECIATE ALL THE EXPLANATION AND HOW YOU THINK THE ACTUAL TRIP ENDED UP BEHIND CLOSED DOORS AND OUT OF THE CAMERA LENS.

FOREIGN MINISTER OF SOUTH AFRICA RONALD LAMOLA, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> NOW FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE EARLY MARCH A TRICKLE OF AID HAS STARTED TO ENTER GAZA .

BUT, UNITED NATIONS OFFICIALS WARNED THAT IT IS "NOWHERE NEAR ENOUGH."

AFTER PALESTINIANS THERE HAVE ENDURED 11 WEEKS OF A TOTAL ISRAELI SIEGE.

ISRAEL'S PRIME MINISTER, BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, SAYS HE OFFENSIVE DESPITE GROWING INTERNATIONAL PRESSURE.

TOM FLETCHER IS THE UN'S HUMANITARIAN CHIEF.

HE IS IN ISTANBUL, TURKEY, IN CLOSE CONTACT WITH HIS TEAM IN GAZA, AND HE JOINS ME NOW HOPEFULLY TO TELL US WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH THESE TRUCKS OF AID.

SO FIRST, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

THERE HAS BEEN A WHOLE LOT OF DISPUTE OVER THIS PAST WEEK OVER, ARE THE TRUCKS INSIDE, OUTSIDE?

IF THEY ARE INSIDE OF THE GETTING TO THE PEOPLE?

WHO IS DISTRIBUTING?

WHAT'S GOING ON?

CAN YOU TELL US WHAT IS ACTUALLY GETTING TO PEOPLE WHO NEED IT RIGHT NOW?

>> WELL YOU ARE RIGHT THERE IS A TRICKLE OF AID NOW GETTING IN, AND THAT'S THE GOOD NEWS.

300,000 MEALS DELIVERED TODAY.

87 TRUCKS , MOST OF THEM CARRYING FOOD.

THAT'S A DROP IN THE OCEAN OF WHAT'S NEEDED.

I'VE GOT 10,000 TRUCKS ON THE BORDER RIGHT NOW CLEARED, READY TO GO , AND WE'LL DO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO SAVE LIVES.

>> 10,000 TRUCKS ARE WAITING?

>> FULL OF FOOD, BABY FOOD, THERE ARE LOTS OF PEOPLE STARTING RIGHT NOW.

2 MILLION PEOPLE INSIDE GAZA AT RISK OF FAMINE.

AND WE KNOW HOW TO DO THIS.

WE LIVERED 600, 700 TRUCKS DURING THE CEASE-FIRE.

NOW THIS IS TOUGH, TOUGH WORK.

WE HAD SOME OF THE TRUCKS LOOTED TODAY.

WE ANTICIPATED THAT.

THE SECURITY SITUATION IS GRIM.

THERE IS OBVIOUSLY A FULL WAR GOING ON ABOVE US.

THE ROADS ARE DESTROYED.

PEOPLE ARE DESPERATE INSIDE GAZA THIRD OUR PEOPLE ARE WORKING ROUND-THE-CLOCK.

AND I JUST PAID TRIBUTE TO THEM.

MANY OF OUR TEAMS THEMSELVES, MALNOURISHED.

AND THEY ARE GETTING IN THOSE TRUCKS, AND THEY'RE GOING TO WORK THROUGH THE NIGHT AGAIN AND DELIVER AS MUCH AS WE CAN FOR AS LONG AS WE CAN.

>> WHEN YOU SAY TRUCKS WERE LOOTED, THIS IS ALSO A TALKING POINT FOR THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT.

THEY SAY THIS STUFF GOES TO HAMAS, A LOSS LEADS TO HAMAS STORES IT.

ARE YOU SURE IT'S NOT GETTING INTO THE WRONG HANDS?

>> WELL SO FAR HAMAS IS STAYING WELL OUT OF THE WAY.

A LOT OF THE LOOTING TAKES PLACE AS YOU COME THROUGH THOSE BORDER CROSSINGS, THERE'S A NO MAN'S LAND THERE.

I'VE DRIVEN THROUGH IT MYSELF A COUPLE MONTHS AGO WHERE MANY OF THOSE GANGS ARE, AND SOME OF IT HAPPENS AS YOU HIT THE COMMUNITIES.

THESE ARE DESPERATE STARVING PEOPLE INSIDE GAZA RIGHT NOW.

BUT WE DON'T THINK IT'S HAMAS DOING THAT LOOTING, AND WE HAVE DISTRIBUTION NETWORKS.

WE HAVE OUR PEOPLE ON THE GROUND.

IT'S IN OUR INTEREST TO GETTING IT TO CIVILIANS WHO NEED IT.

>> CAN I ASK YOU ABOUT LOOK THERE ARE OBVIOUSLY AND WE CAN SEE WITH OUR OWN EYES, THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE AT RISK OF VERY VERY SERIOUS HUNGER, MALNUTRITION AND STARVATION.

THIS THOUGH IS A MATTER OF DISPUTE BETWEEN VARIOUS SIDES , CERTAINLY FROM THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT'S SIDE.

AND YOU SAID THE OTHER DAY THAT SOME 14,000 KIDS COULD BE AT RISK, AND YOU HAD A TIMELINE ON IT.

THEN THERE WAS A LOT OF PUSHBACK.

HOW CAREFUL DO YOU HAVE TO BE WITH YOUR FACTS AND YOUR LANGUAGE, EVEN THOUGH YOU ARE DESCRIBING A SITUATION THAT WE KNOW EXISTS, TO GET IT RIGHT?

AND DO YOU STILL STAND BY THOSE FIGURES?

>> I THINK THAT'S A FAIR QUESTION.

I THINK WE HAVE TO DO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO GET IT RIGHT.

I ENCOURAGE EVERYONE TO READ THE IPC REPORT, THIS IS THE REPORT ON SHANNON CONDITIONS, THEY REPORT NOT JUST ON GAZA, SUDAN, EVERYWHERE AROUND THE WORLD.

14,000 KIDS ACTUALLY 71,000 WHO FACE SEVERE HUNGER AND FACE ACUTE HUNGER.

HEART OF THE ARGUMENT IS OVER THEIR AGE.

I DESCRIBED THEM AS BABIES IN THE REPORT BETWEEN AND FIVE YEARS OLD.

I THINK WE NEED TO FOCUS ON THE FACT THESE KIDS NEED TO GET FED.

I MAKE NO APOLOGIES FOR FOCUSING ON THAT.

>> INDEED, AND I THINK MANY PEOPLE WILL AGREE WITH THAT.

SO CAN I ASK YOU, WHAT ARE YOU ABLE TO DO IN TERMS OF A PROPER DISTRIBUTION EFFORT?

BECAUSE THERE IS NO SECRET THAT ISRAELIS DON'T LIKE THE U.N., THEY DON'T TRUST, AND YOU KNOW ALL THE SANCTIONS AND CENSURE THAT HAS COME DOWN.

SO NOW THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT WE HAD SATELLITE IMAGES AND HAVE BEEN SHARED BY THIS INDEPENDENT PARTY OF CREATING SEVERAL THIS DIVISION POINTS.

AND I WOULD LIKE TO SIMPLY PLAY THE SOUNDBITE FROM -- CALLED THE GAZA HUMANITARIAN FOUNDATION.

HERE IS WHAT HE SAYS.

>> I WANT TO STRESS THIS PLAN IS NOT PERFECT, BUT THIS PLAN WILL BE FEEDING PEOPLE BY THE END OF THE MONTH.

IN A SCENARIO WHERE NO ONE HAS ALLOWED AID TO BE IN OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST 10 WEEKS.

ULTIMATELY THE COMMUNITY IS GOING TO FACE A CHOICE.

THIS WILL BE THE MECHANISM BY WHICH AID CAN BE DISTRIBUTED IN GAZA.

ARE YOU WILLING TO PARTICIPATE?

PRETTY CRITICAL TO WHETHER OR NOT THIS RAMPS UP TO SUFFICIENTLY FEED 2.2 MILLION PEOPLE IN A VERY DESPERATE SITUATION.

>> WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO THAT?

IS THAT A WORKABLE PLAN?

>> SO I DON'T KNOW.

WE'VE HAD A FEW MEETINGS LOOKING AT THIS SO-CALLED MODALITY.

I AM NOT SURE IT CAN DELIVER AT THE SCALE --IT'S OUR DONORS.

IT'S EVERYONE FROM THE POPE TO THE SECURITY COUNCIL WHO ARE SAYING VERY CLEARLY THIS HAS TO COULD BE DONE IN A PRINCIPLED WAY IN LINE WITH HUMANITARIAN VALUES AND PRINCIPLES, WHICH MEANS NEUTRAL, IMPARTIAL.

IT CAN'T BE IN SUPPORT OF THE WAR EFFORT.

AND WE DO THAT EVERYWHERE.

THIS IS OUR BREAD AND BUTTER.

THIS IS WHAT WE DO, AS HUMANITARIANS, WE DELIVER AID IN A PRINCIPLED WAY.

GAZA, SUDAN, UKRAINE .

WE KNOW HOW TO DO THIS.

MASSIVE SCALE.

IF RESTRICTIONS ARE LIFTED WE'LL GET IT DONE.

WE CAN SAVE MILLIONS OF LIVES, WE CAN FEED MILLIONS OF PEOPLE IN GAZA .

FOR THE NEXT FEW MONTHS WE HAVE GOT THE AID READY TO GO.

>> YOU KNOW THERE'S VERY LITTLE MEDICINE THAT HAS COME IN.

THERE ARE ATTACKS ON THE HOSPITALS.

WE ARE HEARING FROM HOSPITALS ALMOST EVERY DAY.

WE HEAR THE TERRIBLE STORIES FROM DOCTORS, NURSES, INTERNATIONALS WHO HAVE GONE IN TO TRY AND HELP.

AND THERE'S ALSO APPARENTLY NO NEW FUEL HAS BEEN LET INTO GAZA SINCE MARCH 2nd.

THIS REALLY AFFECTS THE ABILITY TO CLEAN THE WATER, DESALINATE, AND MAKE IT ACTUALLY DRINKABLE.

CAN YOU TELL ME WITH THE WATER SITUATION IS?

WE HAVE HEARD TERRIBLE THINGS ON THAT FRONT AS WELL.

>> IT'S UTTERLY DIRE, AND THIS IS ONE OF THE PROBLEMS, WE ARE GETTING IN THIS BABY POWDER THAT NEEDS TO BE MIXED WITH FRESHWATER, AND THERE'S NONE.

WE HAVE TO GO GET WATER THERE.

I TRUST MY TEAM ON THE GROUND TO PRIORITIZE HOW.

IT WAS MAINLY BABY FOOD.

WE WERE FOCUSED ON SAVING THOSE KIDS, AND WE STARTED TO SAVE THEM.

MANY OF THE NEXT 80 TRUCKS HAVE BEEN FOOD, MOST HALF OF IT, WORLD FOOD PROGRAM GETTING THE BAKERIES BACK OPEN, FIVE BAKERIES BACK OPEN TODAY GETTING THE COMMUNITY KITCHENS OPEN, 70 COMMUNITY KITCHENS BACK OPEN AGAIN TODAY.

IN THE NEXT PHASE NOW MUCH MORE MEDICINE, A LOT OF THAT IS WHAT'S ON THE BORDER RIGHT NOW.

I WENT TO THOSE HOSPITALS BOMBED OUT.

MATERNITY WARDS BARELY FUNCTIONING.

DOCTORS, MEDICS, TAKEN OUT BY DRONES AND MILITARY STRIKES.

THEY ARE IN A TERRIBLE CONDITION, AND WE'VE GOT TO GET THEM BACK OPEN.

THAT'S OUR NEXT PRIORITY.

>> WHAT IS YOUR PERSONAL BECAUSE YOU HAVE BEEN THERE SEVERAL TIMES.

YOU HAVE JUST TALKED ABOUT IT.

YOU ARE STRUGGLING TO NOT JUST DELIVER IN A WAR ZONE, BUT YOU ARE CONSTANTLY TRYING TO STRUGGLE AGAINST GOVERNMENTS OR THE GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL THAT DOESN'T WANT YOU IN THERE AND HAS ITS OWN WAR AIMS.

HOW DO YOU FEEL AFTER ALL THIS?

>> IT'S TOUGH.

AND TO CLARIFY BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE WATCHING MY WORDS CAREFULLY, I'VE BEEN ONCE IN THE LAST SIX MONTHS INTO GAZA FOR A COUPLE DAYS, BUT I KNOW THE REGION WELL, AND MY TEAM ARE IN THERE ON THE GROUND.

IT'S EXHAUSTING, IT'S TOUGH.

WE KEEP GOING.

IT MATTERS WHETHER WE ARE DELIVERING.

WHETHER MY COURAGEOUS TEAMS ON THE GROUND ARE GETTING THE SUPPORT, AND WE ARE HEARING IT LOUD AND CLEAR FROM THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY A LOT LOUDER OVER THE WEEKEND, AND WHAT REALLY MATTERS IS THOSE PEOPLE ARE STARVING RIGHT NOW AND WHETHER THE WORLD IS GOING TO GENUINELY STAND UP AND DELIVER ON THIS AID.

>> TOM FLETCHER, HEAD OF THE UNITED NATIONS MILITARY AND, THANK YOU INDEED.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> NOW FROM NEWARK AIRPORT'S RECENT AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL OUTAGES TO THE JANUARY PLANE CRASH IN D.C. THAT CLAIMED 67 LIVES, THERE'S BEEN GROWING CONCERN AROUND AIR TRAVEL SAFETY IN THE UNITED STATES.

NEW YORK TIMES INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER KATE KELLY HAS BEEN EXAMINING THE PROBLEMS PLAGUING AMERICAN AVIATION, AND SHE IS JOINING TO DISCUSS POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS.

>> KATE KELLY OF THE NEW YORK TIMES, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

OVER THE PAST FEW WEEKS, THERE HAVE BEEN SEVERAL HIGH PROFILE INCIDENTS.

THERE WAS A BIG PLANE CRASH.

THERE WERE AIR-TRAFFIC OUTAGES.

YOU ARE A REPORTER WHO COVERS THIS.

YOU HAVE BEEN LOOKING INTO THIS FOR WEEKS NOW.

WHEN IT CAME TO THAT TRAGEDY AT WASHINGTON NATIONAL AIRPORT PUT THAT IN PERSPECTIVE FOR US, THE HAPPENED, VERSUS THE ONES THAT ARE HAPPENING THIS YEAR.

>> YEAH, SO THAT JANUARY 29th TRAGEDY NEAR REAGAN WAS BY FAR THE MOST DEADLY AVIATION ACCIDENT IN THE UNITED STATES IN 24 YEARS.

THE COMPARISON WOULD BE A 2009 CRASH IN THE BUFFALO AREA.

UM--BUT, SO, SO THAT IS--I DON'T WANT TO SAY HEARTENING, IT WAS TERRIBLE.

BUT, IN THE SENSE OF THESE TYPES OF CATASTROPHES ARE INFREQUENT I GUESS THAT'S SOMEWHAT REASSURING, BUT YOU DON'T WANT TO SEE IT HAPPEN AT ALL.

I HAVE WRITTEN EXTENSIVELY ABOUT THE CRASH AT REAGAN, AND WE COULD TALK MORE ABOUT THAT, BUT I WOULD SAY THAT WAS JUST A WHOLE ARRAY OF DIFFERENT FACTORS.

AIR-TRAFFIC CONTROL BEING A PIECE, LOW STAFFING BEING AN ASPECT.

BUT, IN SOME WAYS IT'S UNIQUE COMPARED TO WHAT WE ARE SEEING AT NEWARK BECAUSE IT INVOLVED FREQUENT HELICOPTER TRIPS UP AND DOWN THE POTOMAC RIVER WHICH IS CLOSE TO THE COMMERCIAL AIRSPACE.

THE DESIGN OF THE AIRSPACE IN TERMS OF HOW CLOSE A HELICOPTER CAN LEGALLY COME TO A LANDING COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT IN CERTAIN SCENARIOS.

IT WAS REALLY NOT SAFE.

THE TRANSPORTATION SAFETY BOARD HAS CALLED FOR URGENT CHANGES TO THE STRUCTURE OF THOSE FLIGHT PATHS TO AVOID ANY POSSIBLE FUTURE ISSUES WHICH FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION HAS QUICKLY ADOPTED.

UM--BUT, ALSO JUST GENERAL CONGESTION IN THAT AIRSPACE, WHAT WE CALL TASK SATURATION, MEANING AIRSPACE WORKERS LIKE AIR-TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS AND PILOTS HAVING TO NAVIGATE US GUYS ARE OVERLY DIZZY, THEY HAVE TOO MUCH --BUSY.

>> I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF CONCERN FOR PEOPLE ON THE FUNDAMENTALS UNDERLYING THE INFRASTRUCTURE.

AND I WONDER THE AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS, THE TECHNOLOGY, THE STAFFING--THAT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS OVERNIGHT.

>> YEAH, AND YOU REALLY NAILED THE CORE PROBLEM HERE.

THE PROBLEM OBVIOUSLY IS THAT WE HAVE SHORT STAFFING AND TECHNOLOGICAL ISSUES.

BUT THE FIX IS A VERY LONG-TERM FIX, AND IT'S A LONG-TERM PROBLEM.

SO IT'S A LONG STORY, BUT I GUESS WHAT I WOULD SAY IS WHAT WE ARE SEEING, AND A COLLEAGUE AND I JUST WROTE ABOUT THE RECENT HISTORY OF AIR-TRAFFIC CONTROL INVESTMENTS BY UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT, OR LACK THEREOF, I CAN TELL YOU IT'S A MULTI-ADMINISTRATION, BIPARTISAN --IT'S NOT JUST ONE ADMINISTRATION OR ONE PARTY THAT HAS DROPPED THE BALL HERE.

IT'S A COMBINATION OF CONGRESS NOT AUTHORIZING ENOUGH FUNDING, THE WHITE HOUSE AND PORTMAN OF TRANSPORTATION LEADERS PERHAPS NOT SEEN THE URGENCY AND MOVING POLITICALLY IN AN EFFECTIVE WAY, AND FRANKLY MAY BE A COLLECTIVE LACK OF URGENCY.

BEEN ALMOST A QUARTER CENTURY SINCE WE HAD A DEADLY CRASH LIKE THE ONE AT REAGAN AIRPORT IN JANUARY.

I THINK THAT WAS SOMETHING OF AN OUTLIER IN TERMS OF THE INVESTMENT PIECE.

I THINK THERE WERE MANY WHICH UNDERINVESTMENT IS JUST ONE.

I THINK UNTIL THE NATIONAL ATTENTION IS REALLY FOCUSED ON THE AVIATION SECTOR SOMETIMES THERE IS A LACK OF POLITICAL ABILITY TO UNLEASH ADDITIONAL FUNDING AND A SENSE OF URGENCY.

SO WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN NOW IS REALLY A MULTIMILLION DOLLAR, MAYBE TENS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS, INVESTMENT IN AIR- TRAFFIC CONTROL, WHICH THE NEW TRANSPORTATION SECRETARY SEAN DUFFY HAS SAID HE WANTS TO DO, AND HE'S LAID OUT A FRAMEWORK FOR THAT.

BUT ALSO SOME CREATIVE THINKING AND AGGRESSIVE MOVEMENTS TO TRY AND RETAIN AND RECRUIT NEW AIR- TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS SO THAT THOSE RANKS AREN'T SO DEPLETED.

DATA THAT THE TIMES REVIEWED JUST LAST WEEK SHOW THE VAST MAJORITY OF AMERICAN AIR- UNDERSTAFFED TODAY.

>> SO, HOW MANY?

WHAT PERCENTAGE?

>> I BELIEVE IT'S 99%.

I THINK THERE WERE ONLY TWO FACILITIES ACROSS THE NATIONAL AIRSPACE THAT WERE FULLY STAFFED.

>> SO WHY IS THAT?

>> ALSO LONG STORY, SOME PEOPLE WOULD GO BACK TO THE 1980s.

IN 1981 PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN ESSENTIALLY SQUASHED THE UNION AND BARRED ITS MEMBERS FROM REEMPLOYMENT.

SO EFFECTIVELY THAT SYSTEM HAD TO START FROM SCRATCH RECRUITING NEW PEOPLE.

THAT END WAS LIFTED IN 1993, AND SOME OF THOSE EXPERIENCED CONTROLLERS CAME BACK TO THE WORKFORCE, BUT MORE OR LESS, THE UNITED STATES HAD TO SORT OF DEVELOP AND GROW A WHOLE NEW GENERATION OF CONTROLLERS.

SINCE THEN THERE HAVE BEEN A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT ISSUES.

SOME OF IT IS CYCLICAL.

RIGHT NOW THERE'S A MANDATORY RETIREMENT AGE OF 56 YEARS OLD.

SECRETARY DUFFY AS AN ASIDE WANTS TO EXTEND THAT TO 61, BUT THERE ARE INCENTIVES TO RETIRE AFTER SOME -- SOME OF THAT WAS THE PANDEMIC.

DURING THE PANDEMIC TRAINING OF NEW AIR-TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS STOPPED FOR A PERIOD OF TIME, BECAUSE OF THE HEALTH POLICIES AND PROCEDURES THAT WERE IN PLACE PREVENTED THAT IN PERSON TRAINING FROM OCCURRING.

UM--AND ALSO, WE HAVE SEEN A HUGE UPTICK IN AIR TRAVEL SINCE THE RECOVERY FROM THE PANDEMIC.

SUCH THAT THERE IS MORE DEMAND FOR THESE SERVICES THAN THERE WAS BEFORE.

SO, WE HAVE SEEN MAJOR SHORTAGES IN AIRSPACE LIKE JACKSONVILLE WHICH IS CRITICAL TO FLYING THROUGHOUT THE SOUTHEAST AND ALSO IS A KEY HUB FOR SPACE TRAVEL.

WHICH IS ALSO SOMETHING THAT AIR-TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS KEEP AN EYE ON.

WE HAVE SEEN SHORTAGES IN THE NEW YORK AREA THERE'S A HUB IN LONG ISLAND WHERE CONTROLLERS WATCH OVER KENNEDY AIRPORT, LaGUARDIA, AND UP UNTIL RECENTLY NEWARK, TOO.

SO, THAT WAS AN AREA OF STAFFING SHORTFALLS.

THAT'S ACTUALLY PART OF WHY THE NEWARK AREA AIR-TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS WERE RELOCATED FROM LONG ISLAND TO PHILADELPHIA.

>> AND THESE ARE HIGH STRESS JOBS.

THERE'S NOT REALLY A CHANCE FOR YOU TO LOOK AT YOUR PHONE.

THE TIME YOU ARE ON, IF YOU ARE IN FRONT OF THOSE COMPUTERS AND RADAR SCREENS YOU ARE TALKING TO PILOTS THE WHOLE TIME.

THIS IS A VERY ACTIVELY ENGAGED AND STRESSFUL ENVIRONMENT.

>> IT'S VERY STRESSFUL AND UNDER THE UNION CONTRACT THAT THESE AIR-TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS WORK UNDER THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO SIT ON POSITION FOR MORE THAN TWO HOURS BEFORE THEY GET A BREAK OF SOME KIND.

BUT OFTEN THEY ONLY HAVE 30 MINUTES TO USE THE BATHROOM, EAT FOOD, RECHARGE A PHONE, STRETCH THEIR LEGS--IT'S NOT AN INCREDIBLY LONG RECOVERY TIME.

AND SHIFTS I THINK TYPICALLY ARE STRUCTURED FOR EIGHT HOURS WITH BREAKS INCLUDED, SOMETIMES THEY GO LONGER.

AT A PLACE LIKE NEWARK WHERE THEY ARE HAVING STAFFING SHORTAGES PEOPLE ARE BEING ASKED TO WORK OVERTIME.

THEY ARE BRINGING IN PEOPLE FOR AS MANY SHIFTS I THINK AS THEY ARE WILLING AND ABLE TO DO BECAUSE THEY ARE SO SHORTSTAFFED.

I THINK IT'S VERY HARD WORK AND TAXING ON THE MIND.

COLLEAGUES OF MINE WROTE A SERIES IN 2023 ABOUT UM--THE TOLD THIS WAS TAKING ON PEOPLE'S MENTAL AND PHYSICAL HEALTH.

PEOPLE WERE DRINKING 10 CUPS OF COFFEE OR FALLING ASLEEP ON THE JOB OR WORSE, TURNING TO DRUGS HAVING ISSUES AT HOME, SO IT'S QUITE A STRESSFUL PROFESSION.

AND I THINK REST TIME IS VERY IMPORTANT.

>> YOU HAVE BEEN TALKING TO AIR- TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS FOR MONTHS NOW, AND THEY HAVE BEEN LISTING OUT SOME OF THESE COMPLAINTS TO YOU.

WHAT ARE KIND OF THE KEY CONCERNS ?

WHAT DO THEY WANT?

>> LET'S BE REALISTIC, EVERYBODY HAS THEIR OWN AGENDA.

I THINK AIR-TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS WOULD LOVE TO SEE EVEN BETTER PAY, A RELAXATION OF THEIR SCHEDULES.

THERE ARE THOSE CRITICS WHO WOULD SAY IT'S A VERY TIGHTKNIT ALMOST IMPENETRABLE CULTURE .

PERSONALITIES INVOLVED.

IT'S OCCASIONAL THAT YOU SEE PHYSICAL VIOLENCE IN THESE AIR- TRAFFIC CONTROL HUBS IN REAGAN AIRPORT.

A COUPLE MONTHS AGO THERE WAS A FISTFIGHT IN WHICH ONE WAS ARRESTED FOR ASSAULT AND BATTERY.

SO I THINK THEY CAN BE ROUGH- AND-TUMBLE PLACES TO WORK.

BUT THIS IS A HIGHLY SPECIALIZED SKILL SET THAT TAKES YEARS TO DEVELOP.

AND WE ALL COLLECTIVELY DEPEND UPON THESE PEOPLE TO KEEP US SAFE.

AND SO UM-- WHILE I DON'T THINK ANYBODY SHOULD EVER ABUSE THE SYSTEM IT DOES SEEM LIKE THE GOVERNMENT, THE FAA, SHOULD TAKE CARE OF THESE WORKERS, MAKE SURE THEY ARE HEALTHY, MAKE SURE THEY ARE MOTIVATED TO COME TO WORK AND DO THEIR BEST, AND THAT THEY ARE SET UP FOR SUCCESS AS OPPOSED TO FAILURE AND EXHAUSTION.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS WE HEARD IN THE WAKE OF THE D.C. AIRPORT TRAGEDY FAMILIES WERE SAYING IS THERE A CONFLICT OF INTEREST HERE?

THAT THE FAA NOT JUST SORT OF RUNS THE OPERATION, BUT THEY ARE THE REGULATORY BODY, THAT THERE IS NOT AN INDEPENDENT THIRD-PARTY, A WATCHDOG, THAT CAN TRY TO GET THIS?

DO WE HAVE ENOUGH SUPERVISION?

DOES THE STRUCTURE OF THAT SLEW THESE THINGS DOWN?

>> I THINK I AM HEARING THE SAME THING, WHICH IS TO SAY THERE ARE INCREASING CALLS FOR FIRST OF ALL AN INSPECTOR GENERAL LOOK AT WHAT IS GOING ON CRASH WHAT MORE BROADLY IS HAPPENING AT THE FAA RIGHT NOW.

I'VE HEARD CALLS FOR SEPARATING AT THE REGULATORY ARM OF THE FAA TO CREATE MORE INDEPENDENT OR THIRDLY CREATING AN INDEPENDENT PANEL THAT MIGHT BE ABLE TO TAKE A LOOK AT FAA WITH EXPERIENCED AVIATION OR SAFETY OFFICIALS WHO REALLY UNDERSTAND THE ISSUES.

SO, I THINK THERE'S A CLAMOR TO WHICH ARE INTERESTING PROPOSALS.

UM--I HAVE TO SAY I DO THINK THE FAA HAS BEEN AWARE OF SOME OF THESE PROBLEMS FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME.

TO TAKE ONE SMALL EXAMPLE, YOU KNOW, AS LONG AGO AS 2020 AND MAYBE EARLIER, I KNOW 2020 QUALITY CONTROL PEOPLE IN THE WASHINGTON NATIONAL REAGAN AIRPORT SAID THERE WERE TOO MANY HELICOPTERS COMING UP AND DOWN OUR AIRSPACE AND SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE ABOUT THAT, AND NO MAJOR STEPS WERE TAKEN.

SO, I THINK THE FAA IS AWARE OF ALL THESE ISSUES, AND CERTAINLY THEY WANT SAFE SKIES.

CERTAINLY THEY DON'T WANT ANY CASUALTIES.

UM--I THINK THERE ARE PLENTY OF HARD-WORKING KNOWLEDGEABLE PEOPLE THERE, AND THEY ARE ALL COMMITTED TO THAT.

BUT IS IT A LACK OF FUNDING?

IS IT A PROBLEMATIC STRUCTURE AS YOU SUGGESTED WITH THE REGULATORY FIX?

IS IT THIS SORT OF CONSTANTLY CHANGING LEADERSHIP?

WE TEND TO SEE CHANGING LEADERSHIP WITH A NEW ADMINISTRATION, BUT IF YOU COUNT ACTING ADMINISTRATORS WE'VE SEEN FIVE FAA ADMINISTRATORS IN FIVE YEARS.

>> A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE CONCERNED THERE MIGHT BE IMPACTS TO STAFFING WITH THE EFFORTS THAT D.O.G.E.

AND THE NEW ADMINISTRATION CAME IN, THEY WANTED TO CUT COSTS-- HAS ANY OF THAT HAPPENED, OR IS IT LIKELY TO MAKE THINGS WORSE?

>> SO MY REPORTING SUGGESTS THAT D.O.G.E.

HAS NOT CUT INTO THIS AREA.

SEAN DUFFY, THE TRANSPORTATION SECRETARY, HAD SAID IN THE INITIAL WEEKS OF D.O.G.E.

WE ARE NOT CUTTING ANY AIR- TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS, WE ARE NOT CUTTING ANY SAFETY WORKERS.

IT WAS A LITTLE CONFUSING AT FIRST, BECAUSE SOME OF THOSE MASS EMAILS THAT WENT TO FEDERAL EMPLOYEES FROM THE OFFICE OF PERSONAL MANAGEMENT, WERE RECEIVED BY AIR-TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS, AND I THINK SOME OF THEM DID MOVE TO TAKE THE DEFERRED RETIREMENT PACKAGE.

BUT, THEY WERE BLOCKED FROM DOING SO.

WHAT I DON'T KNOW, AND IT'S AN INTERESTING QUESTION TO PONDER, HAVE THERE BEEN OTHER CUTS TO PARTS OF THE FAA COMPLEX, IF YOU WILL, THAT HAVE AFFECTED THESE WORKERS?

I THINK IT MAY TAKE LONGER TO SEE THE IMPACT OF THOSE TYPES OF CUTS.

BUT SO FAR I THINK THIS CORE FUNCTION IS UNTOUCHED.

>> I ALSO WONDER, PART OF OUR CONVERSATION TALKED ABOUT TECHNOLOGY READ AND I MEAN, I'M NOT THAT OLD, BUT I HAVE HEARD THE GOVERNMENT TRIED TO MAKE ATTEMPTS AT OVERHAULING OUR TECHNOLOGY IN THE SKIES ADDING GPS TO AIRPLANES, CHANGING THINGS ON THE GROUND AT LEAST FOR A COUPLE DECADES NOW.

AND I'M WONDERING WHERE ARE WE IN THE TRANSITION?

>> YOU KNOW, WE ARE NOT VERY FAR ALONG UNFORTUNATELY.

THERE HAS BEEN SOME ATTENTION TO THIS RECENTLY, BECAUSE I THINK SECRETARY DUFFY UM-- HAS TAKEN THE OPPORTUNITY OF, YOU KNOW, THE FOCUS ON AVIATION AFTER THIS TRAGIC CRASH IN JANUARY AND THE PROBLEMS AT NEWARK, TOO, SEES SOME POLITICAL MOMENTUM AND SOLVE SOME PROBLEMS.

SO , HE HAS PROPOSED GETTING RID OF PAPER STRIPS THAT ARE USED TO PROVIDE FLIGHT INFORMATION AND KIND OF PUT ON THE WALL IN AIR-TRAFFIC CONTROL CENTERS AND REPLACE THEM WITH DIGITAL STRIPS.

--TRADE ASSOCIATION WERE HOLDING UP FLOPPY DISKS AND PAPER STRIPS AT A PRESS CONFERENCE TO SHOW HOW AGED THIS SYSTEM WAS, OR IS.

UM--I THINK , TO BE HONEST, SOME OF THESE SYSTEMS TO BE FUNCTIONING FINE EVEN IF THE TECHNOLOGY IS OLD, BUT SOME OF THEM ARE CLEARLY NOT.

AND WHAT'S A LITTLE UNNERVING IS I DON'T HAVE A CLEAR SENSE, AND I DON'T THINK CONTROLLERS DO, OF WHAT THE PROBLEMS ARE.

WHY ARE WE AT THIS TIPPING POINT WHERE WE ARE SEEING ISSUES NATIONWIDE?

IN LONGMONT, COLORADO, LAST WEEK, THERE WAS A 90-2ND OUTAGE OF EQUIPMENT.

AND THIS WAS IN THE DENVER AREA.

SO WE ARE SEEING POCKETS OF DYSFUNCTION THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY.

AND CLEARLY THE FAA NEEDS TO TROUBLESHOOT WHAT THE SOURCE OF THESE PROBLEMS IS OR ARE AND TRY TO REMEDY THEM.

>> WHAT IS IT THAT SLOWS THINGS DOWN?

ADMINISTRATION AFTER ADMINISTRATION, IT SEEMS , TO BIPARTISAN WAY, WANT TO KEEP US SAFE IN THE SKIES, BUT WE DON'T BE ABLE TO SEEM TO DO THE THING THERE ARE PLENTY OF THESE REPORTS THAT ARE WRITTEN.

HERE'S WHAT THE PROBLEM IS.

HERE'S WHAT THE SOLUTION IS.

HERE'S HOW MUCH IT WILL COST.

SO THAT'S NOT THE SECRET.

>> I'M NOT AN EXPERT ON GOVERNMENT PROCUREMENT, BUT THE PROCESS, I DO THINK THE REGULATORY AND SORT OF POLICY SYSTEMS FOR BIDDING ON NEW WORK, TAKING BIDS, KIND OF TROUBLESHOOTING THOSE BIDS, HIRING A CONTRACTOR, GIVING THEM A MULTIYEAR ROLLOUT PERIOD, IT'S ALL VERY SLOW.

I THINK PROBABLY NOT ENOUGH HAS BEEN THROWN AT THE PROBLEM, NOT TO SAY I AM EMBRACING BIG-TIME GOVERNMENT SPENDING.

BUT, THIS IS A SYSTEM THE GOVERNMENT RUNS AND ARGUABLY SHOULD RUN, AND IT COSTS BILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN ORDER TO BE STATE-OF- THE-ART.

THE LAST TIME THE FAA HAD ITS BUDGET REAUTHORIZED WAS 2023 UNDER THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

SOME OF THE ARGUMENTS AT THE TIME HAD TO DO WITH THINGS LIKE ADDING NEW SLOTS TO WASHINGTON REAGAN AIRPORT.

ADDING ADDITIONAL FLIGHTS TO THAT ALREADY CONGESTED AIRPORT.

THESE THINGS TAKE UP VALUABLE ATTENTION AND AIRTIME AND MORE LIKE BORING PROCESS ORIENTED STUFF, BUT LIKE ACTUALLY PROVIDING THIS SORT OF CABLE NETWORK THAT UNDERPINS AVIATION SAFETY, DOES NOT GET AS MUCH AIR TIME, BECAUSE IT'S LOCATED, AND THE PUBLIC MAY NOT HAVE SEIZED ON IT AND PUSHED FOR CHANGE EVEN THOUGH IT WOULD HELP.

>> WHAT WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT FOR THE PAST 15 MINUTES ARE REALLY DEEP PROBLEMS THAT AREN'T GOING TO BE FIXED OVERNIGHT.

SO, AM I AS A PASSENGER SAFE WHEN I TRAVEL IN THE UNITED STATES?

SHOULD I JUST PLAN FOR MORE DELAYS OR OUTAGES AS WE HEAD INTO THIS SEASON?

>> FIRST OF ALL I THINK WE HAVE TO ASSUME AND HOPE THAT THE FAA WILL KEEP SAFETY TOPMOST AS THEY LOOK AT AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLING STAFFING , AND IF THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH CONTROLLERS THAT THEY HAVE A STAFFING TRIGGER, AND THEY GROUND FLIGHTS.

BETTER TO BE LATE THAN RISK SAFETY OR MISS A FLIGHT.

THEN TO --THAN TO RISK SAFETY.

SO I THINK WE SHOULD BE PREPARED FOR DELAYS AND ISSUES ALONG THE WAY.

I WOULD NOT WANT TO SAY TO YOUR AUDIENCE DON'T FLY, I'D--I HAVE NO INFORMATION TO SAY IT'S NOT SAFE.

ISSUES THAT SEEM TO BE COMING TO A HEAD RIGHT NOW.

I THINK I WOULD GIVE THOSE AIR TRAVEL DAYS A WIDE BERTH, PLAN ON BEING FLEXIBLE, AND YOU KNOW, MAYBE CONSIDER THE TRAIN OR THE CAR IF IT'S PRAGMATIC.

AND IF NOT YOU ARE GOING TO BE FINE.

THAT WOULD BE MY THOUGHT.

>> KATE KELLY, NEW YORK TIMES, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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