>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP: >> A SURPRISE TRIUMPH FOR BRAZILS FAR RIGHT AS THE PRESIDENT AND FOB YOUR HEAD FOR A RUNOFF, EXPERT RYAN WINTER BREAKS DOWN WITH THE COUNTRY COULD BE GOING.

> >> THEN WEATHERING WESTERN PRESSURE AS IT WAGES WAR AND UKRAINE.

POLITICAL SCIENTIST HANNAH EXPLAINS HOW RUSSIA HAS REMADE ITSELF TO FUEL PUTIN'S WAR MACHINE.

> >> PLUS: PROTESTS, RIOTS, AND SCHOOLS SET ABLAZE.

MELISSA BELL EXPLAINS THE NATIONWIDE DEMONSTRATIONS OVER EDUCATION FUNDING.

> >> AND ALSO AHEAD: >> THE WOMEN'S LEAGUE HAD BEEN SUBMERGED INTO THE MARGINS THAT PEOPLE DIDN'T KNOW THE PLAYERS, AND IN THIS CASE, THAT THE LEAGUE EVEN EXISTED POINT >> AUTHOR CAMERON TAKES TO MICHELLE MARTIN ABOUT THE STRUGGLES THAT SHAPED WOMEN'S BASKETBALL AND HER NEW BOOK, THAT W.

>> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENTS, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW, THAT SYLVIA A.

& SIMON B. POYTA ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI- SEMITISM, THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION, THE PETER G. PETERSON & JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND , KOO & PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU, THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I AM BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK, SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

CELEBRATIONS, COMMISERATION'S, AND UNCERTAINTY ACROSS BRAZIL, LATIN AMERICA, AND BEYOND.

AFTER NECK AND NECK RACE, A COPY OF HASPEL DO BETTER THAN EXPECTED RESULT IN BRAZIL'S PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

THE SON OF IMPRISONED PRESIDENT PETRO, MORE VOTES THAN INCUMBENT PRESIDENT.

BOTH MEN, THOUGH, FELL SHORT OF AN OUTRIGHT MAJORITY.

FLAVIO IS A VOTE OF CONFIDENCE IN BRAZIL'S FUTURE.

THE PRESIDENT IS CALLING IT UNEXPECTED AND VOWING TO FIGHT ON.

>> [ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] >> Translator: I'M VERY HAPPY ABOUT THE REAL POSSIBILITY THAT THREE WEEKS FROM NOW, BRAZIL WILL GIVE A DEFINITIVE ANSWER THAT ONCE A MODERN GOVERNMENT, A GOVERNMENT WITH FEWER MINISTRIES, A GOVERNMENT THAT WILL RESTORE DEMOCRACY.

>> [ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] >> Translator: IT IS TIME FOR US TO SHOW THE TRUE PICTURE OF BRAZIL TODAY AND THE BRAZIL WE WANT, SO STARTING TOMORROW, WE ARE BEGINNING A NEW CAMPAIGN, A CAMPAIGN IN WHICH WITH ONLY TWO CANDIDATES, WE WILL BE ABLE TO SHOW THE PROPOSALS THAT EXIST FOR BRAZIL.

>> THE RUNOFF IS NOW SCHEDULED FOR LATER THIS MONTH.

AND BOLSONARO IS SEEN AS A FIRM FAVORITE TO WIN OUTRIGHT BUT IF HE DOES, IT WOULD NOT ONLY SHIFT BRAZIL BACK TO THE RIGHT, BUT IT WOULD HAVE HUGE CONSEQUENCES FOR RELATIONS WITH THE U. S. FOR MORE ON ALL OF THIS, LET'S BRING IN BRIAN WINTER , EDITOR-IN-CHIEF OF AMERICAS QUARTERLY, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

WHEN WE SPOKE LAST DECEMBER, YOU DESCRIBED A POTENTIAL GENERATIONAL SHIFT TO THE RIGHT AND BRAZIL.

DOES THIS RESULT FROM OVER THE WEEKEND CONFIRMED THAT THESIS, OR IS THIS JUST A LULA A SPECIFIC RESULT?

>> BIANNA, IT LOOKS LIKE BRAZIL IS HEADING THAT WAY, AND BARRING SOME UNEXPECTED UPSET, THE NEXT PRESIDENT OF BRAZIL WILL BE FLAVIO BOLSONARO, AND THIS IS PART OF A RIGHT WING SHIFT THAT WE ARE SEEING, NOT JUST IN BRAZIL, BUT ALL OVER LATIN AMERICA, WHERE OF THE LAST 16 DEMOCRATIC ELECTIONS THAT WE HAVE SEEN IN THE REGION, 13 OF THEM HAVE BEEN WON CANDIDATES ON THE CENTER RIGHT OR RIGHT.

IN A LOT OF CASES LIKE THIS ONE, THERE IS ALSO AN ANTI- INCUMBENT ELEMENT TO THESE VOTES.

VOTERS IN BRAZIL, IT'S VERY CLEAR, WERE UPSET WITH THE STATUS QUO, THEY WERE DISSATISFIED WITH THE LEADER IN LULA, WHAT IS THIS RICH HISTORY AND HE WAS RUNNING FOR A FOURTH TERM, BUT HE IS ALSO 80 YEARS OLD, AND SOME OF THAT WILL SOUND FAMILIAR TO THE PART OF YOUR AUDIENCE THAT IS IN THE UNITED STATES OR THAT FOLLOWS U. S. POLITICS.

THE REJECTION OF THE STATUS QUO , OF THE ESTABLISHMENT, AND YOU KNOW, THE RETURN OF A FAMILY IN THAT BOLSONARO'S THAT HAS AN AWFUL LOT OF PARALLELS WITH THE TRUMP FAMILY.

>> YEAH, SO, YOU HEARD HIM IN RESPONSE TO THESE RESULTS CALL THEM UNEXPECTED.

I WANT TO PLAY SOUND FOR OUR VIEWERS AND FOR YOU OF WHAT HE TOLD CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR JUST LAST MONTH WHEN HE WAS HERE IN NEW YORK FOR THE U. N. GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

>> EVERY ELECTION , I AM CONCERNED, CHRISTIANE, BECAUSE WE ALREADY KNOW THE RESULTS AFTER THE BALLOT BOX IS OPEN, BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT WHAT IS AT STAKE TODAY AND BRAZIL IS NOT A CHOICE OF PEOPLE OR PARTIES, [ INAUDIBLE ], IS A CHOICE THAT EITHER WE HAVE DEMOCRACY ARE WE HAVE BARBARISM OR WE HAVE POLICY TO CONSERVE NATURE OR DEFORESTATION.

A POLICY OF SOCIAL INCLUSION OR LEAVE THE POOR ABANDONED , OR THE STRENGTHENING OF CULTURE OR THE END OF CULTURE.

THIS IS WHAT IS AT STAKE NOW.

AND I HAVE THE AWARENESS THAT I WILL WIN THE ELECTION, THAT I AM SURE I AM GOING TO WIN THE ELECTIONS, AS BRAZIL NEEDS DEMOCRACY POINT >> SO, FLAVIO BOLSONARO OUTPERFORMED THE POLLS, THE RIGHT ONE WELL BEYOND JUST THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE, SO WHAT DID POLLSTERS AND PERHAPS LULA HIMSELF FAILED TO RECOGNIZE ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN BRAZIL RIGHT NOW?

>> LOTS OF DYNAMICS ARE AT WORK IN THIS RACE, BIANNA.

THIS IS A RACE THAT I HAVE DESCRIBED AS ONE BEING DEFINED BY APATHETIC POLARIZATION, A BIT OF AN ACADEMIC TERM, IF YOU WILL, BUT IT IS A COUNTRY THAT IS SIMULTANEOUSLY VERY POLARIZED, AND WHERE, YOU KNOW, WHEN I WAS IN BRAZIL EARLIER THIS YEAR, IT WAS EXTREMELY HARD TO FIND ANYBODY WHO WAS VERY EXCITED ABOUT ONE CANDIDATE OR THE OTHER.

10 YEARS OF A VERY POLARIZED POLITICS, AND WHAT YOU SENSE FROM BRAZILIANS IS THAT PEOPLE ARE KIND OF TIRED.

BUT THERE ARE LOTS OF CONCERNS, MANY OF WHICH LULA RAISED THERE, WHAT THE RETURN OF THE SYLVIA A.

& SIMON B. POYTA MIGHT MEAN FOR THE INSTITUTIONS, WHAT IT MIGHT MEAN FOR THE AMAZON, BUT BRAZILIANS HANDED FLAVIO BOLSONARO IS UNEXPECTEDLY STRONG RESULT YESTERDAY BECAUSE OF POCKETBOOK ISSUES.

BECAUSE OF A FEELING THAT EVEN THOUGH THE BRAZILIAN ECONOMY, THE HEADLINE NUMBERS ARE ACTUALLY PRETTY GOOD, THE ECONOMY HAS BEEN GROWING 3% A YEAR FOR MUCH OF LULA'S TERM, UNEMPLOYMENT IS AT HISTORIC LOWS, INFLATION IS RELATIVELY LOW BY BRAZILIAN STANDARDS, AT ABOUT 4%, BUT STILL, WHEN YOU ASK PEOPLE IN POLLS AND HOW THEY FEEL ABOUT THEIR OWN ECONOMIC SITUATION, THEY FEEL LIKE THINGS ARE GETTING WORSE.

AND HERE AGAIN, WE SEE SOME PARALLELS WITH THE UNITED STATES, THIS TALK OF AFFORDABILITY THAT WE HAVE HERE.

IT'S BEEN SO MUCH A FEATURE OF THE RACE IN BRAZIL THAT BRAZILIAN MEDIA HAD ACTUALLY BEEN USING THE ENGLISH WORD, AFFORDABILITY, TO TALK ABOUT THE CONCERNS OF VOTERS IN THIS RACE, AND THAT SEEMS TO BE, ONCE AGAIN, THE REASON WHY THAT BOLSONARO FAMILY IS NOW ON THE CUSP OF RETURNING TO POWERPOINT >> SO, AFFORDABILITY, THE ECONOMY, DESPITE WHAT THE NUMBERS THEMSELVES MIGHT SAY, THAT IS NOT TRICKLING DOWN TO HOW VOTERS ARE FEELING, THERE IN MY IS YOUR PROBLEM.

AS YOU NOTED, SIMILAR TO WHAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS FACING HERE AT HOME.

ALSO, CRIME CONTINUES TO BE A BIG FACTOR, AND YOU SAID THAT ORGANIZING --FEAR OF ORGANIZED CRIME WAS PULLING VOTERS AWAY FROM LULA.

HOW MUCH OF HIS SETBACK IS BASED ON THAT SPECIFICALLY WHEN IT COMES TO FEMALE VOTERS?

>> ORGANIZED CRIME IS ANOTHER ISSUE WHERE THE BRAZILIAN -- THE BRAZILIAN RIGHT HAS BEEN ABLE TO MAKE INROADS, WHERE , YOU KNOW, EVEN THOUGH THE HOMICIDE RATES ARE DOWN SUBSTANTIALLY SINCE 2017, CRIMES LIKE EXTORTION, ARMED ROBBERY, CARGO THEFT, AND OTHER KINDS OF CRIME HAVE BEEN A REAL PROBLEM UNDER THE LULA GOVERNMENT.

LULA HAS ALSO BEEN PERCEIVED AS SOMEWHAT WEAK OR AT LEAST NOT STRONG ENOUGH ON ORGANIZED CRIME.

HE SAID IN AN INTERVIEW LAST YEAR, HE SAID, UM, THIS IS A QUOTE, HE SAID THE REAL --HE SAID DRUG DEALERS ARE THE VICTIMS OF DRUG USERS.

AND THAT IS A PERCEPTION THAT HE IS NOT AS TUNED IN AS THAT BOLSONARO FAMILY HAS BEEN HISTORICALLY ON THIS ISSUE OF ORGANIZED CRIME.

AND JUST ONE FINAL THOUGHT, THIS HAS BEEN THE STORY OF THE LAST TWO YEARS IN THE REST OF LATIN AMERICA AS WELL.

RIGHT-WING GOVERNMENTS THAT HAVE BEEN EKING OUT THESE VICTORIES, PRECISELY BECAUSE OF CONCERNS OVER ORGANIZED CRIME.

>> YEAH, AND FLAVIO BOLSONARO HAS CAMPAIGNED ON AND SUGGESTED TO PROMISE TO COPY [ INAUDIBLE ]'S TACTICS IN EL SALVADOR, SO THAT IS WHAT HE IS CAMPAIGNING ON, BUT IN ACTUALITY, EXPERTS SAY THAT MAYBE DIFFICULT TO DELIVER IN THE BRAZIL, SO WHAT CAN YOU ACTUALLY DO IN TERMS OF CRACKING DOWN ON ORGANIZED CRIME, THE WAY HE SAYS HE WOULD LIKE TO MIRROR BUKELE'S HANDLING OF IT IN EL SALVADOR?

THAT IS A REALLY IMPORTANT POINT, BIANNA.

WE HAVE SEEN SEVERAL PRESIDENTS THAT HAVE BEEN ELECTED IN THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS IN LATIN AMERICA WHO HAVE VOWED AT LEAST IN SOME WAYS TO COPY BUKELE'S TACTICS.

REMEMBERING THAT IN EL SALVADOR, THEY HAVE ARRESTED 2% OF THE ADULT POPULATION OVER THE LAST 10 YEARS, IN SOME CASES AT LEAST, WITHOUT DUE PROCESS, WITHOUT A FAIR TRIAL.

THAT IS NOT SOMETHING, TO BE CLEAR, THAT FLAVIO BOLSONARO HAS PROPOSED TO COPY EXACTLY, BUT HE IS TALKING GENERALLY ABOUT A TOUGHER APPROACH, TOUGHER TACTICS, USING THE MILITARY MORE, BUILDING NEW SECURE PRISONS IN ORDER TO HOUSE SOME OF THESE CRIMINALS, AND INCREASING THE POPULATION OF INCARCERATED PEOPLE MORE GENERALLY.

IT IS WORTH NOTING THAT OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE GONE DOWN THIS ROAD, INCLUDING ECUADOR, CHILE, COSTA RICA , AND OTHERS.

THEY HAVE NOT YET BEEN ABLE TO REPLICATE THE SUCCESS THAT EL SALVADOR HAS IN TERMS OF REDUCING HOMICIDE RATES.

THESE CRIME GROUPS ARE VERY POWERFUL, THEY HAVE DIVERSIFIED INTO AREAS LIKE ILLEGAL MINING AND HUMAN TRAFFICKING, AND IT'S NOT JUST AS SIMPLE AS DECIDING THAT YOU'RE GOING TO TAKE THEM ON.

>> THE BOLSONARO FAMILY --AND IT'S COME BACK, ALMOST READS LIKE A TELLING OF ALLAH.

YOU HAVE THE FORMER PRESIDENT, VERY POLARIZING, BELOVED BY HALF THE COUNTRY, HATED AND VILIFIED BY HALF OF THE COUNTRY, HE IS UNDER HOUSE ARREST, HIS ELDEST SON IS WITHIN REACH OF THE RESIDENCY, NOT TO MENTION THE SPITTING IMAGE OF HIS FATHER.

HIS SONS WIFE AND OTHER SONS ARE WINNING SEATS, SO WHAT EXPLAINS THE ENDURING POWER OF THIS POLITICAL FAMILY, IS IT WHAT THEY ARE CAMPAIGNING ON AND PROMISING, OR IS IT SORT OF VINDICATING THE FAMILY NAME, SPECIFICALLY JAIR'S LEGACY?

>> BIANNA, YOU COMPARED IT TO TELLING NOVELLA, AND I SOMETIMES SAY IT IS A TELLING OVERLAP OF U. S. POLITICS, BUT ON A TWO YEAR DELAY.

THE PARALLELS WITH THE TRUMP FAMILY ARE SO STRIKING THE UNITED STATES HAD JANUARY 6th WITH THE UPRISING IN CONGRESS, BRAZIL HAD JANUARY 8th, ALBEIT TWO YEARS LATER, [ INAUDIBLE ], BUT THAT IS WHERE BOLSONARO SUPPORTERS VANDALIZED THE PRESIDENTIAL PALACE, CONGRESS, AND THE SUPREME COURT.

AS FAR AS THE WHY OF IT, LOOK, THIS IS WHERE BRAZIL AND THE UNITED STATES, THEIR PETS DO DIVERGE A LITTLE BIT BUT REALLY, SINCE THE RETURN OF DEMOCRACY IN THE 1980s, THERE HAD NEVER BEEN SOMEONE WHO HAD PUT TOGETHER A CONSERVATIVE ALLIANCE IN BRAZILIAN POLITICS.

ALL THE GOVERNMENTS THAT BRAZIL HAD PRIOR TO BOLSONARO IN 2018 WERE EITHER CENTER, CENTERLEFT, OR LEFT.

AND IT TURNS OUT THAT THIS DEMAND WAS PRESENT ALL ALONG CREDIT YOU HAD, AMONG OTHER THINGS, AN EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN COMMUNITY IN BRAZIL THAT HAS GROWN FROM 7% OF THE POPULATION IN THE 1980s FOR SOME 30% TODAY.

IT'S ALSO A COUNTRY WHERE AGRICULTURAL BUSINESS IS SORT OF THE MAIN FOCUS OF THE ECONOMY NOW.

EVEN THE MUSIC IN BRAZIL HAS CHANGED AND WHAT USED TO BE THE COUNTRY OF SOMBER AND BOSSA NOVA IS NOW THE COUNTRY OF [ INAUDIBLE ], WHICH IS KIND OF A BRAZILIAN, TROPICAL LYSED VERSION OF COUNTRY MUSIC IN THE UNITED STATES, AND THAT BOLSONAROS WERE THE FIRST ONES ABLE TO COME ON IN 2018 AND BUILD THIS BRAND UMBRELLA WHERE THEY LEGITIMIZED RIGHT-WING POLITICS, AND IT TURNS OUT THAT AT LEAST SOME OF THAT DEMAND WAS THERE ALL ALONG.

>> YEAH, THE SIMILARITIES ARE FASCINATING.

SO, WHAT MUST LULA DO DIFFERENTLY NOW IN THESE NEXT THREE WEEKS IF HE STANDS A CHANCE TO WIN BACK SOME OF THESE VOTERS WHO ARE NOW SKEPTICAL OR HAVE SAID THAT THEY ARE GOING TO SIT THIS ONE OUT?

>> SO, LET'S TALK ABOUT THE MATH HERE, BECAUSE IT LOOKS REALLY DIFFICULT FOR LULA AT THIS STAGE.

HE LOST THE FIRST ROUND BY TWO PERCENTAGE POINTS TO FLAVIO BOLSONARO, BUT THE OTHER CANDIDATES IN THE RACE SOME DOUBT ABOUT EIGHT PERCENTAGE POINTS, AND ALL THOSE ADDITIONAL CANDIDATES ARE RIGHT OF CENTER.

SO, IT LOOKS REALLY TOUGH FOR LULA, HE WOULD HAVE TO CAPTURE SOMEWHERE AROUND THE ORDER OF 60 TO 70% OF THE VOTE THAT WENT TO THESE OTHER CANDIDATES IN THE RACE, THAT'S UNLIKELY.

SO, SITTING HERE TODAY, IT REALLY SEEMS AS IF THE ONLY THING THAT CAN RESULT IN A LULA COME BACK AND STAND IN THE WAY OF FLAVIO BOLSONARO COMING TO THE PRESIDENCY STARTING NEXT YEAR WOULD BE ANOTHER GAME CHANGING SCANDAL.

UM, AND IT'S NOT UNTHINKABLE, IT COULD HAPPEN.

THERE HAS BEEN CHATTER IN BRAZIL FOR MONTHS NOW THAT I HAVE HEARD DIRECTLY FROM HIGH RANKING OFFICIALS OF, YOU KNOW, IT'S ALL SPECULATION, BUT OF THERE BEING SOME ADDITIONAL REVELATIONS THAT COULD DAMAGE FLAVIO BOLSONARO RELATED TO EITHER THIS [ INAUDIBLE ], THIS MIDSIZED BANK SCANDAL THAT HAS DOMINATED BRAZILIAN POLITICS THIS YEAR OR SOMETHING ELSE.

I DON'T LIKE TO TALK ABOUT SPECULATION LIKE THAT, I WAS A REPORTER FOR 15 YEARS, I WAS TRAINED NOT TO, BUT IT HAS BEEN IN THE MOUTH OF EVERYBODY IN BRASÍLIA.

NOW WE WILL SEE IN THE FINAL THREE WEEKS OF THE CAMPAIGN IF SOMETHING ELSE COMES OUT, BUT IT WOULD HAVE TO BE SOMETHING TRULY MAJOR, BECAUSE AT THIS STAGE, FLAVIO LOOKS LIKE SUCH A STRONG FAVORITE >> WE WILL FOLLOW IT CLOSELY IN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS, BRIAN WINTER, THANK YOU FOR JOINING THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

> >> NOW TO UKRAINE WHERE RUSSIA IS PREPARING WHAT IT IS COMING MASSIVE STRIKES AGAINST KYIV AND OTHER REGIONS IN UKRAINE.

IT IS THE LATEST INTIMIDATION TACTIC FOR MOSCOW AS IT SEEKS TO GRIND DOWN UKRAINE'S MORALE AND TAKE DOWN VITAL INFRASTRUCTURE AHEAD OF WINTER.

BUT RUSSIA, TOO, IS FEELING THE PAIN OF THIS GRINDING WAR OF ATTRITION.

UKRAINE HAS VOWED TO STEP UP ITS STRIKES OF RUSSIAN OIL REFINERIES IN RESPONSE TO MOSCOW'S ATTACKS.

IT IS DOUBLING DOWN ON A STRATEGY THAT HAS ALREADY TRIGGERED WIDESPREAD FUEL SHORTAGES AND SHOWN DISCONTENT AMONG ORDINARY RUSSIANS.

IN HER NEW BOOK, "WE SHALL OUTLAST THEM," HANNAH EXPLAINS HOW RUSSIA HAS REMADE ITSELF TO SUPPORT PUTIN'S WAR AND SIDESTEP PRESSURE FROM THE WEST.

AND HANNAH JOINS ME NOW FROM WASHINGTON, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, LET'S START WITH THE TITLE ITSELF, CONGRATULATIONS ON THE BOOK, WE SHALL OUTLAST THEM, THOSE ARE WORDS FROM 1956, SPEAKING ABOUT LASTING THE WEST, HE WAS PROVEN WRONG THEN, WHY DOES PUTIN THINK HE IS RIGHT NOW?

>> PUTIN LOOKS AT THE WORLD TODAY AND STILL THINKS THAT THE GLASS IS MORE HALF-FULL THAN HALF EMPTY, THAT HE CAN OUTLAST THE WEST IN THE SYSTEMIC STRUGGLE OVER UKRAINE.

JUST LIKE CHRISTOPHE, YOU MENTIONED IT, THAT THE SOVIET UNION COULD OUTLAST THE WEST IN A SYSTEMIC STRUGGLE AT THE TIME.

WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IN THE LAST 4 1/2 YEARS IS THAT RUSSIA HAS REMADE ITSELF ON THE GLOBAL STAGE IN ORDER TO SECURE SUPPORT FOR ITSELF, FOR ITS ECONOMY, FOR ITS WAR MACHINE.

I DO WANT TO NOTE, BIANNA, THAT THIS WAS NOT THE ORIGINAL PLAN.

I THINK WHEN PUTIN ORDERED TANKS INTO UKRAINE IN FEBRUARY 2022, HE CALCULATED THAT THIS WOULD BE A SHORT WAR, A "SPECIAL MILITARY OPERATION," THAT UKRAINIAN GOVERNMENT WOULD COLLAPSE, THAT RUSSIA WOULD CREATE A NEW SITUATION IN UKRAINE AND STALLED A PRO- RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT, AND THE WEST WOULD ESSENTIALLY HAVE TO SWALLOW THIS NEW STATUS QUO.

NOW WE KNOW THIS IS NOT WHAT HAPPENED.

THAT UKRAINIAN PEOPLE HAVE RESISTED HEROICALLY.

THE WEST TOTALLY SEVERED ITS TIES WITH RUSSIA, INSTITUTED SANCTIONS , THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION IS TODAY THE MOST SANCTIONED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, AND IT RESPONDS --IN RESPONSE, THE KREMLIN HAS RECALIBRATED IN TWO WAYS, TO SECURE SUPPORT FOR ITSELF IN THE NON-WESTERN WORLD, AND THE BOOK TELLS THE STORY OF HOW THIS HAS UNFOLDED IN DIFFERENT AREAS OF STATECRAFT, ECONOMIC STATECRAFT, PROPAGANDA, AND THE WORD OF NARRATIVES, BUT IN ADDITION TO CHARMING THE NON- WEST, RUSSIA HAS ALSO TRIED TO INTIMIDATE THE WEST, TO PRESSURE THE WEST TO --TO MAKE IT STOP SUPPORTING UKRAINE, AND THAT IS WHAT WE ARE CURRENTLY SEEING ESCALATING IN THE CAMPAIGN OF HYBRID WARFARE WAGED AGAINST EUROPE, BECAUSE EUROPE IN THIS FIFTH YEAR OF WAR HAS BECOME RUSSIA'S BIGGEST PROBLEM.

>> AND A CONSTANT THEME FROM THE KREMLIN AND VLADIMIR PUTIN WAS THAT THIS WAR, THE SPECIAL MILITARY OPERATION, ALL OF THAT WAS BEING CONDUCTED NOT JUST AGAINST UKRAINE, BUT AGAINST THE WEST, THAT THE WEST WAS ANTAGONIZING RUSSIA , AND RUSSIA IN A SENSE WAS DEFENDING ITSELF, AND THAT IS HOW HE SOLD THIS TO THE RUSSIAN PUBLIC FOR SO MANY YEARS NOW, DESPITE THE INGENUITY THAT WE HAVE SEEN ON THE BATTLEFIELD FROM YOU.

AND THEIR DRONE PRODUCTION, AND THE FACT THAT THEY HAVE BEEN ABLE TO REALLY INFLICT SIGNIFICANT DAMAGE ON THE BATTLEFIELD , AND WHERE WE HAVE SEEN TENS OF THOUSANDS, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF RUSSIAN SOLDIERS KILLED AND THE DAMAGE TO THE RUSSIAN REFINERIES AND ENERGY SECTOR.

THE FT NOW IS DESCRIBING RUSSIA AS CHOKING OFF UKRAINE'S COURT AND DESTROYING THE INFRASTRUCTURE IN HOPES OF CHOKING OFF UKRAINE'S ECONOMY, THAT THAT SEEMS TO BE THEIR LATEST TACTIC RIGHT NOW, AND IT DOES APPEAR TO BE WORKING, JULY WAS THE MOST DANGEROUS MONTH FOR SHIPPING IN THE BLACKFEET SINCE FEBRUARY 2022, THAT IS ACCORDING TO LLOYD'S LIST IN AUGUST.

WHAT CAN PUTIN DO STRATEGICALLY NOW TO DAMAGE UKRAINE ECONOMICALLY IN WAYS THAT HE HASN'T BEEN ABLE TO DO MILITARILY?

>> YEAH, YOU OUTLINED IT PRETTY WELL, WE SEE AN INTENSIFIED RUSSIAN CAMPAIGN AGAINST UKRAINE GOING INTO THE FALL AND WINTER.

ESCALATING EVEN IN COMPARISON TO PREVIOUS YEARS, SO WE ARE ALREADY SEEING STEPPED-UP STRIKES, NOT JUST DURING THE NIGHT, BUT NOW ALSO DURING THE DAYTIME AGAINST UKRAINE'S ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE, AGAINST THE WATER INFRASTRUCTURE, AGAINST AGRICULTURAL EXPORTS FOR THE BLACK SEA, NOW BRIDGES IN KYIV, EVEN THE ACADEMY OF SCIENCES WAS HIT IN RECENT DAYS, AND BIANNA, THE INTENTION IS QUITE CLEAR.

I THINK THE RUSSIANS ARE ESSENTIALLY TRYING TO MAKE UKRAINIAN CITY IS UNLIVABLE OVER THE FALL AND WINTER, IN ORDER TO FORCE THE UKRAINIANS INTO PAINFUL CONCESSIONS AT THE NEGOTIATING TABLE PERHAPS NEXT SPRING.

BUT THERE IS A SECOND PART TO THE RUSSIAN STRATEGY, AND THAT IS A CAMPAIGN AGAINST EUROPE.

YOU KNOW, I WROTE A WHOLE BOOK ABOUT RUSSIA'S EFFORTS TO SECURE SUPPORT IN THE NON- WESTERN WORLD , FROM CHINA, FROM IRAN, FROM NORTH KOREA , SELLING MORE OIL TO INDIA, AND RUSSIAN SUCCESSES HERE HAVE BEEN VERY REAL.

BUT WE CAN ALSO SAY 4 1/2 YEARS INTO THE WAR THAT COLLECTIVELY, THIS NON-WESTERN SUPPORT FOR THE RUSSIAN ECONOMY AND DEFENSE ENTERPRISE HAS NOT ENABLED RUSSIA TO ACTUALLY WIN THE WAR.

AND SO, THE BIGGEST PROBLEM THAT PUTIN HAS AS HE LOOKS INTO THE UPCOMING PERIOD IS EUROPE, BECAUSE EUROPE STILL SUPPORTS UKRAINE.

THE EUROPEANS HAVE IN MANY WAYS STEPPED IN TO OFFSET SOME OF THE DECLINE IN U. S. SUPPORT DURING THE SECOND TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, A COUNTRY LIKE GERMANY WHERE I AM BASED IS NOW IN ABSOLUTE NUMBERS THE BIGGEST PROVIDER OF MILITARY SUPPORT TO UKRAINE, AND RUSSIA IS LOOKING DESPERATELY FOR SOLUTIONS TO THIS PROBLEM.

THEY WANT THE EUROPEANS TO STOP SUPPORTING UKRAINE.

NOW, THEY TRIED TO ERODE PUBLIC SUPPORT IN EUROPE FOR THE SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE OVER THE LAST 4 1/2 YEARS WITH THIS SO- CALLED HYBRID CAMPAIGN, MEANING POLITICAL, PSYCHOLOGICAL, ECONOMIC MEASURES, BUT IT HAS ONLY GOTTEN THEM SO FAR, AND WHAT WE ARE NOW SEEING IS AN INTENSIFICATION OF THIS CAMPAIGN, NAMELY DIRECTLY TARGETING WITH EXPLOSIVE DRONES, FOR INSTANCE, MILITARY RELATED INFRASTRUCTURE IN EUROPE, UM, FACTORIES ARE BEING NAMED BY THE RUSSIAN SIDE AND FRIEND IS A LEGITIMATE TARGET.

THIS IS A PROBLEM THAT RUSSIA WILL BE FOCUSING ON OVER THE UPCOMING PERIOD.

WHETHER IT WILL BE ENOUGH TO GET THE UKRAINIANS TO SURRENDER IS A WHOLE DIFFERENT QUESTION.

>> AND YOU'RE RIGHT TO POINT OUT THE LONG-TERM SUPPORT BOTH IN TERMS OF LANGUAGE AND MILITARY AND FINANCIAL SUPPORT THAT EUROPE IN PARTICULAR HAS CONTINUED TO PROMISE UKRAINE.

THE UNITED STATES CONTINUES TO PROVIDE INTELLIGENCE, THAT UKRAINIAN OFFICIALS ARE REALLY BLAMING THE LACK OF WESTERN AIR DEFENSES, SPECIFICALLY PATRIOT MISSILES FROM THE UNITED STATES, FOR THE CONTINUED STRIKES ON ITS INFRASTRUCTURE.

THEY JUST CAN'T MAINTAIN WITH WHAT THEY HAVE AT THIS POINT.

IS THIS WHAT PUTIN IS HOPING TO SEE, THAT PERHAPS LONGER-TERM , MONEY IS GOING TO BE AN ISSUE FOR BOTH HIM AND UKRAINE?

BUT IN THE SHORT TERM, AS MUCH DAMAGE AS HE WANTS CAN BE INFLICTED UPON UKRAINE WITHOUT THESE AIR DEFENSE SYSTEMS.

>> YOU ARE EXACTLY RIGHT, AND INCIDENTALLY, THE SHORTAGE OF PATRIOT INTERCEPTORS THAT YOU JUST POINTED TO IS ONE OF THE POSITIVE SIDE EFFECT FOR RUSSIA FROM THE ONGOING WAR WITH IRAN.

I THINK WHEN THE WAR BROKE OUT IN LATE FEBRUARY, BIANNA, THE RUSSIANS WERE QUITE BRIDLED, THEY DIDN'T LIKE THEIR STRATEGIC PARTNER, IRAN, BEING ATTACKED BY THE UNITED STATES AND ISRAEL.

THERE WAS ALSO SOME CONCERN THAT THE IRANIAN REGIME WOULD COLLAPSE.

I ALSO THINK RUSSIA DID NOT LIKE THE FACT THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WAS SUDDENLY NO LONGER FOCUSED ON UKRAINE AND RUSSIA, BUT WAS QUITE DISTRACTED BY EVENTS IN THE MIDDLE EAST, CONSIDERING THAT THE RUSSIANS HAD HOPED THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WOULD FORCE UKRAINE INTO PAINFUL CONCESSIONS AT THE NEGOTIATING TABLE, THEN OF COURSE, THE IRAN WAR HAS HAD SOME UPSIDES FOR THE RUSSIANS AND ELEVATED OIL PRICE, WHICH CAME AT AN IMPORTANT TIME WHEN RUSSIA IS FACING A BUDGET DEFICIT, AND THEN THE DEPLETION OF PATRIOT INTERCEPTORS IN THE PERSIAN GULF, WHICH IS NOW BEING FELT VERY PAINFULLY BY UKRAINE.

SO, YES, YOU'RE COMPLETELY RIGHT TO SAY THAT PUTIN WILL OPPORTUNISTICALLY TRY TO EXPLOIT THESE GAPS, AND WHEN IT COMES TO RUNNING OUT OF MONEY OVER THE MEDIUM TO LONG-TERM, I ALSO THINK THAT HE STILL BELIEVES THAT THE EUROPEANS WILL EVENTUALLY FALTER IN THEIR SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE.

HE SEES THE RISE OF POPULIST PARTIES ACROSS EUROPE, PARTIES THAT QUESTION THE SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE, THAT WANT A DIFFERENT KIND OF RELATIONSHIP WITH RUSSIA, AND HE IS JUST WILLING TO, YOU KNOW, TO OUTLAST THE OTHER SIDE, AND HE THINKS THAT POLITICALLY, HE CAN HAVE THE LONGER STAMINA THAN THE OTHER SIDE.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT REPORTS IN THE NEW YORK TIMES OVER THE WEEKEND ABOUT PUTIN ASKING TRUMP'S ENVOY, STEVE WITKOFF AND JARED KUSHNER, TO ADVANCE A DEAL, [ INAUDIBLE ] OVERSEAS ASSETS AS PART OF THEIR DIPLOMACY.

DOES THE IDEA OF BUSINESS OPPORTUNITIES AT THIS POINT PERSUADE PUTIN TO END THE WAR, WHICH AS YOU HAVE NOTED AT THE ONSET, HAS NOT GONE THE WAY HE HAD INTENDED.

DOES HE SAVE FACE WITH THESE TYPES OF DEALS, GIVEN THE VULNERABILITY THAT RUSSIA FACES, HAVING TO RELY INCREASINGLY ON COUNTRIES LIKE CHINA?

>> I SEE ABSOLUTELY NO INDICATION THAT BUSINESS DEALS, INCLUDING WITH THE UNITED STATES, WILL MAKE PUTIN SHIFT HIS CALCULUS ON THE WAR AGAINST UKRAINE.

I MEAN, THESE BUSINESS --THESE TYPES OF BUSINESS DEALS HAVE BEEN OFFERED BEFORE, THEY HAVE BEEN DISCUSSED BEFORE.

IF THE RUSSIANS CAN GO FOR THIS, THEY ABSOLUTELY WILL DO, BECAUSE THEY WANT TO NORMALIZE THE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE UNITED STATES, INDEPENDENT OF THE UKRAINIAN DOSSIER, THAT IS WHAT THEY HAVE BEEN PURSUING SINCE THE BEGINNING OF 2025, EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVEN'T SEEN MANY MATERIAL BENEFITS FOR THIS YET, SO THAT THEY CAN PURSUE THIS, THEY ABSOLUTELY WILL, BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT PUTIN WILL BUDGE IN TERMS OF HIS CORE DEMANDS, AS FAR AS UKRAINE IS CONCERNED.

>> YEAH, I TEND TO AGREE WITH YOU ON THAT POINT AS WELL, WE HAVE COME A LONG WAY FROM BIDEN SAYING NO FUTURE OF UKRAINE WILL BE DISCUSSED WITHOUT UKRAINE AT THE TABLE, AND NOW WE ARE HEARING REPORTS OF POTENTIAL DEALS TO END THE WAR THAT INVOLVE STRICTLY THE UNITED STATES AND --AND RUSSIA, AND, UM, SOME OTHER ALLIES IN THE MIDDLE EAST, ACCORDING TO THIS LATEST REPORT.

UM, YOU DESCRIBED HOW RUSSIA HAS ADAPTED TO SANCTIONS , BEING ONE OF THE MOST SANCTIONED COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD, HOW SPECIFICALLY?

>> SO, THERE'S EXPORT SIDE OF THINGS AND THE IMPORT SIDE OF THINGS.

COMING TO EXPORTS, RUSSIA HAS ASSEMBLED WHAT IS CALLED A SHADOW FLEET OF TANKERS IN ORDER TO SHIP ITS CRUDE OIL TO WINNING BUYERS IN ASIA, FOR EXAMPLE TO INDIA, IN CIRCUMVENTION OF A PRICE CAP THAT THE G7 INSTITUTED ON RUSSIAN OIL IN LATE 2022, SO IN SHORT, POORLY MAINTAINED TANKERS, WHICH ARE OFTEN REREGISTERED BY SHELL COMPANIES IN THE UAE, SO IT IS KIND OF PLAYING A GAME OF WHAC-A-MOLE IN ORDER TO REIGN IN THAT ACTIVITY.

THIS IS ON THE EXPORT SIDE, VERY IMPORTANT.

ON THE IMPORT SIDE, RUSSIA HAS MANAGED TO PRETTY MUCH IMPORT ANY GOODS IT HAS WANTED, CONSUMER GOODS FOR THE RUSSIAN POPULATION, BUT ALSO THE SO- CALLED [ INAUDIBLE ] GOODS, WHICH HAVE A CIVILIAN AND MILITARY APPLICATION.

FOR EXAMPLE, THROUGH THIRD COUNTRIES IN THE SOUTH CAUCASUS OR IN CENTRAL ASIA.

AND AGAIN, IT HAS BEEN VERY DIFFICULT FOR WESTERN COUNTRIES TO CHOKE OFF THAT KIND OF ECONOMIC ACTIVITY, BECAUSE YOU NEED A HUGE --A HUGE.

NECROTIC APPARATUS ENABLE TO ENSURE COMPLIANCE BY COMPANIES WITH THIS KIND OF ACTIVITY, AND AGAIN, UM, RUSSIA WAS ALSO DIRECTLY TRADED WITH IRAN AND NORTH KOREA AND CHINA, AND IT HAS BEEN VERY DIFFICULT FOR SANCTIONS OR EXPORT CONTROLS TO UNDERMINE THAT KIND OF ACTIVITY AS WELL.

>> IT IS A WELL REPORTED BOOK, I KNOW YOU REPORTED FOR MORE THAN A DOZEN COUNTRIES IN DOING THE RESEARCH FOR THIS BOOK, IT COMES AS CONCERNS OF PUTIN'S QUEST NOW EXTENDING BEYOND JUST UKRAINE AND INTO NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES, ESTONIA IS MOVING TROOPS PERMANENTLY CLOSER TO ITS BORDER WITH RUSSIA, THERE ARE REAL CONSEQUENCES OF THIS WAR THAT IS NOW INTO ITS FIFTH YEAR.

IT IS FASCINATING , THANK YOU SO MUCH, HANNA, FOR JOINING US FOR >> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING ME, THANK YOU.

> >> WE TURN NOW TO FRANCE WHERE A WAVE OF STUDENT PROTESTS IS SHUTTING DOWN HUNDREDS OF SCHOOLS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

PROTESTERS ARE ANGRY OVER TEACHER SHORTAGES, CROWDED CLASSROOMS, AND BUILDINGS IN DISREPAIR.

THOUSANDS HAVE BEEN ARRESTED SINCE THE DEMONSTRATIONS BEGAN LAST MONTH.

STUDENTS SAY CONDITIONS IN SOME SCHOOLS ARE SIMPLY UNACCEPTABLE.

>> THERE ARE NO WINDOWS , AND IN THE TOILETS, THERE IS NO WATER.

THERE ARE COCKROACHES AND RATS EVERYWHERE IN THE SCHOOL.

THE SCHOOL CANTEEN IS TOO EXPENSIVE.

THERE IS NO TOILET PAPER IN THE TOILETS AND WE NEED TO GO AND ASK SCHOOL SUPERVISORS TO GET SOME.

THE BUILDINGS ARE DILAPIDATED.

IN THE WINTER IN THE CLASSROOMS, IT'S TOO COLD.

IT'S -5 DEGREES CELSIUS, AND IN THE SUMMER, IT'S 40 DEGREES CELSIUS.

WE CAN'T WORK IN THOSE CONDITIONS.

THAT'S BUT THE POLICE RESPONSE HAS ALSO COME UNDER SCRUTINY AS PROTESTERS ACCUSE OFFICERS OF EXCESSIVE FORCE.

TODAY, A 15-YEAR-OLD PROTESTER REPORTEDLY LOST HIS HAND AFTER PICKING UP A POLICE STUN GRENADE AN INVESTIGATION IS NOW UNDERWAY.

CORRESPONDENT MELISSA BELL JOINS US FROM PARIS WITH MORE.

MELISSA, WE HAVE BEEN COVERING THESE PROTESTS AND NOW INTO THE SECOND WEEK, HOW BAD IS THE SITUATION AND WHY HAS IT REACHED SUCH A BOILING POINT NOW?

>> WELL, IT'S JUST GOTTEN WORSE REALLY, EVER SINCE THE 21st OF SEPTEMBER, THAT INITIAL PROTEST, WHICH WAS OUT EAST OF PARIS, IT WAS DEMANDING THAT STUDENTS JOIN THE TEACHERS TO DEMAND MORE STAFF, THAT WAS FIXED, MORE STAFF WERE SENT.

BUT BY THEN, THE MATCH HAD REALLY BEEN LIT, AND WHAT YOU SAW WAS THIS MOVEMENT SPREAD, AND ITS VIOLENCE, I THINK, I WAS SURPRISED MANY.

IT IS NOW MORE THAN 1000 SCHOOLS THAT ARE IMPACTED, ANOTHER 4500 WERE CLOSED JUST TODAY, BIANNA.

AND WHAT IS BEHIND IT IS THIS REAL ANGER FROM STUDENTS THAT GOES BACK FOR YEARS.

THIS KIND OF VIDEO SUGGESTING WHAT THEY DON'T HAVE IN OUR CLOSET, THE LACK OF A DESK, THE LACK OF A CHAIR, A TEACHER NOT TURNING UP AND BEING REPLACED GO BACK FOR YEARS, SO THESE ARE LONG-STANDING GRIEVANCES THAT THEY HAVE, THAT THEY ARE NOW EXPRESSING WITH A GREAT DEAL OF VIOLENCE.

AS YOU SAY, A LOT OF THE GOVERNMENT RESPONSE IS REALLY FOCUSED ON THE PRESENCE OF THE FAR LEFT AT SOME OF THESE BARRICADES, AND THE QUESTION OF HOW THE POLICE RESPOND.

YOU KNOW, THERE HAVE BEEN SO MANY ARRESTS, IT IS 5000 PEOPLE HAVE NOW BEEN TAKEN INTO CUSTODY AS A RESULT OF THIS MOVEMENT.

85% OF THEM ARE MINORS, AND MOST OF THEM HAVE NO CRIMINAL RECORD, WHICH OF COURSE THEN LEAVES THE QUESTION OF HOW THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM DEALS WITH THEM.

>> SO, WHERE DOES THIS MOVEMENT GO FROM HERE, AND AS YOU HAVE JUST LAID OUT, IS THERE AN ORGANIZED MOVEMENT OR IS THIS JUST SOMETHING THAT IS ORGANICALLY PICKING UP MORE AND MORE ATTENTION IN PROTESTS?

>> IT NOT BEEN PRETTY ORGANIC SCHOOL BY SCHOOL, REALLY FUELED BY SOCIAL MEDIA, AND WHAT STUDENTS SAW WHAT WAS HAPPENING ELSEWHERE, AND THAT'S REALLY WHAT HELPED IT SPREAD LIKE WILDFIRE.

THERE WAS THIS TURNING POINT LAST THURSDAY, BIANNA, WHEN THE GOVERNMENT SPOKE OF WHAT WAS HAPPENING, DESCRIBED IT NO LONGER AS A STUDENT PROTEST AND WERE LIKE URBAN VIOLENCE, VOWING TO REALLY CRACKDOWN AND BRING THINGS OTHER --UNDER CONTROL.

WITH THE OTHER MEN, THEY WERE REALLY TRYING TO SPEAK WITH STUDENTS, THERE WAS THIS MEETING ON FRIDAY WHERE THE EDUCATION ADMINISTRATOR RECEIVED SOME OF THOSE TWO LEADERS, BECAUSE NOW THIS IS ALSO BEING LED BY SOME OF THE STUDENT UNIONS, WHO HAVE NOW BEEN DONE BY TEACHER UNIONS.

THEY WALKED OUT OF THE MEETING VERY DISSATISFIED WITH WHAT THEY HEARD.

SORT OF THE GOVERNMENT IS BETWEEN A ROCK AND A HARD PLACE, IT NEEDS THIS MOVEMENT TO STOP, BUT IT IS ALSO TRYING TO PUSH THROUGH ITS 2027 BUDGET, WHICH SEEKS TO REIN IN SPENDING, AND ESSENTIALLY THEY FEEL THEY CAN'T BE SPENDING ANY MORE MONEY.

THIS NEXT STEP IS THE BIG PROTEST WE EXPECT TOMORROW, MARCHES ACROSS FRANCE, WHERE HE WAS SEEK NOT JUST THE STUDENTS AT THEIR BARRICADES AND ALSO AT THE MARGINS, BUT ALSO STUDENT UNIONS --SORRY, TEACHER UNIONS, AND WE EXPECT OTHER PUBLIC SECTOR WORKERS.

THERE ARE A BUNCH OF GRIEVANCES THERE AMONG PUBLIC SECTOR WORKERS BUT GENERALLY, WE SAW A BIG MARCH LAST WEEK, THEY WILL LIKELY PARTICIPATE, BECAUSE SOME OF THE UNIONS ARE DESCRIBING THE START OF [ INAUDIBLE ].

>> AND THIS ALL HAPPENS AS YOU HAVE A LAME-DUCK PRESIDENT, ELECTIONS NEXT WEEK.

HOW ARE ALL THE PARTIES REACTING TO THIS AND WHO STANDS TO BENEFIT MOST AT THIS POINT AT LEAST?

>> THAT'S RIGHT, THE TIMING OF THIS REALLY COULDN'T BE WORSE FOR THE GOVERNMENT, NOT JUST BECAUSE OF THAT 2027 BUDGET I MENTIONED, BUT ALSO BECAUSE OF THAT PRESIDENTIAL RACE NEXT SPRING.

IT WAS ALREADY LOOKING LIKE A VERY VICIOUS FIGHT BETWEEN THE FAR RIGHT AND THE FAR LEFT, ESSENTIALLY FLOUNDERING IN A NUMBER OF POLLS.

THIS HAS ADDED FUEL TO THAT, AND IN A WAY, KICKED OFF UNOFFICIALLY THE START OF THAT PRESIDENTIAL RACE.

THE FAR LEFT PARTY HAS BEEN PRESENT AT SOME OF THOSE BARRICADES, THAT HAS BEEN SEIZED UPON BY THE GOVERNMENT AS A SIGN THAT THEY ARE INSTRUMENTAL LYSING THE STUDENT ANGER.

THEY, FOR THEIR PART, DEFEND THEIR RIGHT TO BE THERE, AND DEFEND THE STUDENTS' RIGHT TO PROTEST, SO IT HAS BECOME POLITICIZED, AND THIS OF COURSE HAS ONLY ADDED FURTHER FUEL TO THE FIRE, SO I THINK YOU CAN EXPECT ANOTHER VERY ANGRY WEEK WITH STUDENTS DETERMINED [ INAUDIBLE ] WHAT THEY DESCRIBE AS THE POLICE REPRESSION AND THE POLITICIZATION OF THEIR MOVEMENT AS THIS SORT OF DAY AND THAT THEY DIDN'T NEED.

WHAT THEY WANT ARE THERE GRIEVANCES TO BE HEARD, WHICH THEY SAY, BIANNA, ARE LEGITIMATE BUT THEY ARE NOT ASKING FOR MUCH, THEY SAY THE BARE MINIMUM, TO BE ABLE TO ALLOW THEM TO STUDY, WHICH IS DECENT CLASSES, TEACHERS THAT ARE REPLACED ARE PRESENT, AND ENOUGH RESOURCES TO ALLOW THEM TO LEARN.

ONE OF THE INTERESTING THINGS ABOUT THIS AS THERE WAS A SPIKE OF FERTILITY AND BIRTHS IN 2010, THESE ARE THE STUDENTS NOW IN HIGH SCHOOL, AT A TIME WHEN THE GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN CUTTING EDUCATION SPENDING.

SO, YOU SEE, IN 2008, -- COMPARED TO 2008, I'M SORRY, THERE WERE 250,000 EXTRA HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS.

AND MUCH FEWER TEACHERS AND FEWER RESOURCES, AND THAT REALLY IS WHAT'S PART OF THE PROBLEM.

>> AND MELISSA, HOW IS THE FAR RIGHT RESPONDING?

IS THIS AN ARGUMENT FOR THEIR SORT OF LAW AND JUSTICE AND ORDER CAMPAIGN?

>> I THINK --I THINK PROBABLY IT IS.

WE HAVE EVEN HAD ONE OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S SONS TWEETING ABOUT THIS, THAT THIS WAS A SIGN OF IMMIGRATION OUT OF CONTROL, OF CHAOS IN THE STREETS OF FRANCE, SO IT HAS REALLY BEEN SEIZED UPON BY BOTH SIDES BUT PROBABLY MUCH MORE BY THE FAR LEFT, SIMPLY BECAUSE STUDENTS ARE THEIR NATURAL CONSTITUENTS.

AND ALSO BECAUSE FROM THE GOVERNMENT'S POINT OF VIEW, WHEN THEY CAN'T SPEND ANYMORE MONEY ON THEM, THEY SEE THIS AS AN EASY WIN FOR THEM.

THE ANGER ON THE STREETS ALSO FEELS THE SATISFACTION OF THE GOVERNMENTS PERFORMANCE, AND BY THE WAY, THOSE EDUCATION CUTS WERE CARRIED OUT DURING PRESIDENT MACRON'S TWO TERMS IN OFFICE, SO IT IS AN OBVIOUS ISSUE FOR THEM, AND THEY INTEND AT THEIR PRESENCE AT THE BARRICADES AND THEIR DEFENSE OF THE STUDENTS, TEASES AS MUCH AS THEY CAN, BIANNA FOR >> MELISSA BELL IN PARIS, YOU HAVE BEEN COVERING THIS FOR US, HE WILL CONTINUE DOING THAT, THANK YOU.

> >> NOW, PACKED OUT ARENAS, A BILLION-DOLLAR TEAM, AND RIVALS .

WOMEN'S BASKETBALL IS AT AN ALL-TIME HIGH, BUT HOW DID IT GET THERE?

THIS AUTHOR JOINS MICHELLE MARTIN TO TALK ABOUT THE HISTORY OF SEXISM, RACISM, AND UNDERFUNDING AND WHAT THE FUTURE NOW HOLDS FOR THE GROWING GAME.

>> THANKS, BIANNA.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> IT'S A PLEASURE, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME HERE.

>> THIS FASCINATING HISTORY OF "THE W," AS THE WNBA IS CALLED, THEY ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF NEW CONTRACTS, ALL THE THINGS, BUT YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVE BEEN WORKING ON THIS FOR A WHILE, WHAT GAVE YOU THE IDEA?

>> JUST LESS THAN 10 YEARS AGO, THIS WASN'T THE CASE.

I WAS EDITOR-IN-CHIEF AT [ INAUDIBLE ] AND I WAS FIRST TEACHING IN ACADEMIA AND TEACHING COLLEGE.

>> WHAT?

>> WOMEN'S BASKETBALL SITE AND I WAS THE FIRST WOMAN, SO THEREFORE THE FIRST BLACK WOMAN TO RUN A WOMEN'S BASKETBALL SITE, AND THAT WAS 2018, AND IN THAT YEAR, I WAS SPEAKING TO MY THEN EIGHT-YEAR-OLD NIECE AND ASKING HER, YOU KNOW, DO EVEN KNOW OF ANY WOMEN'S BASKETBALL PLAYERS?

AND HER ANSWER WAS NO, SHE DIDN'T KNOW ASIA WILSON, EVEN THOUGH SHE IS LIVING IN SOUTH CAROLINA, BUT SHE COULD NAME LeBRON JAMES AND STEFAN CURRY, AND THAT REALLY GOT ME THAT THE WOMEN'S LEAGUE HAD BEEN SO PUSHED INTO THE MARGINS THAT PEOPLE DIDN'T KNOW THE PLAYERS, AND IN THIS CASE THAT THE LEAGUE EVEN EXISTED.

>> A'JA WILL SEND , POWERHOUSE WOMEN'S BASKETBALL PROGRAM, YOU KNOW, THE COACH, DON STALEY, OLYMPIC GOLD MEDAL WINNING COACH, SO, THE WNBA TIPPED OFF IN 1957 WITH THE SLOGAN, WE GOT NEXT.

TALK ABOUT THOSE EARLY YEARS, IF YOU WOULD.

I AM IN WASHINGTON, D. C. THE, AND IT WAS --MY RECOLLECTION WAS THAT A LOT OF FAN SUPPORT FROM THE BEGINNING, BUT THAT WASN'T THE CASE EVERYWHERE.

>> THAT'S A GREAT POINT.

UM, PEOPLE FELT LIKE IN OUR CULTURE THAT SOMETHING MAJOR HAD SHIFTED.

YOU HAD LIKE TIPPER GORE AT THE FIRST, IN 1999, AT THE ALL-STAR GAME, AND THE SOCCER TEAM THAT WON THE WORLD CUP THAT YEAR.

[ INAUDIBLE ] AND OTHERS WERE THERE TO CHEER THESE WOMEN ON, WHITNEY HOUSTON SINGING THE NATIONAL ANTHEM, SO THERE WAS WIDESPREAD EMBRACE.

BUT FROM THE SPORTS WORLD AND SPORTS COLUMNISTS ESPECIALLY, IT WAS A LOT OF DEGRADING, YOU KNOW, KIND OF RULING THEM OUT BEFORE EVEN GAME 1, AND IT'S NOT GOING TO BE A SLAM DUNK BECAUSE WOMEN DON'T DUNK THE BASKETBALL, AS IF THAT IS BASKETBALL.

AND WE SEE TODAY, DUNCAN WAS A THING, AND NOW IT IS THE THREE POINT SHOT.

STILL, THAT IS NOT THE FULL GAME.

SO, A LOT OF PEOPLE , SPORTS COLUMNISTS MAINLY, WERE PRETTY DEROGATORY AGAINST THE LEAGUE AND ITS PLAYERS, AND THE COMMENTARY IS VERY SEXIST.

AND THEN REFERRING TO SOME PLAYERS AS, OH, THEY LOOK LIKE THESE ARE MUG SHOT PICTURES, AND YOU KNOW, JUST RACIST UNDERTONES, AND PEOPLE FELT OKAY TO SAY THIS, YOU KNOW?

IT'S THEIR JOB, THEIR COLUMNISTS FOR THESE PAPERS, AND THIS IS WHAT THEY WERE PUTTING OUT.

AND ON THE COURT, THE SPORT , THERE WAS ROOM TO GROW.

THE THREE POINT SHOT WASN'T WHAT IT IS NOW.

THE FIRST GAME AND THE FIRST COUPLE OF SEASONS WERE PRETTY SLOPPY.

BUT OVER TIME, THE GAME HAS EVOLVED AT THE PLAYERS COMING IN ARE MUCH MORE PREPARED YOU MENTIONED DON STALEY AND WE HAVE OTHER FORMER PLAYERS NOW TEACHING IN COLLEGIATE PROGRAMS, SO THESE PLAYERS NOW ARE GETTING OUT OF COLLEGE AND ARE REALLY READY TO PLAY AT THE PRO LEVEL.

>> THERE WERE SOME REALLY GREAT PLAYERS JUST FROM THE BEGINNING, WOULD YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THEM?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

MY GOODNESS, OF COURSE, THE ONES WHO COME TO MIND THAT KIND OF SHOCKED EVERYBODY IS THE COMMENTS, BECAUSE YOU HAVE CYNTHIA COOPER WHO HAD BEEN PLAYING PROFESSIONALLY IN ITALY FOR ALMOST 10 YEARS AT THAT POINT, SHE IS IN HER MID-30s, A ROOKIE, AND I DON'T THINK ANYBODY EXPECTED THAT A 30 SOMETHING CYNTHIA COOPER WAS GOING TO BE AS DOMINANT AS SHE WAS.

WINNING FOUR STRAIGHT TITLES, AND I BELIEVE SHE WAS FINALS MVP WITH EACH OF THOSE WINS.

AND OF COURSE, YOU HAVE CHERYL SWOOPES AND TINA THOMPSON WITH HER, AND REBECCA LOBO AND VICKI JOHNSON AND THERESA WEATHERSPOON IN NEW YORK, AND OF COURSE, THE LEAGUE ORIGINALLY WANTED AN EAST COAST, WEST COAST RIVALRY, THE ONE IN NEW YORK -L. A. , AND THAT DIDN'T MANIFEST BECAUSE THE COMMENTS DISRUPTED EVERYBODY'S PLANS.

>> BUT WHAT HAPPENED TO THE COMMENTS, THOUGH?

>> THEY FOLDED, AND IT IS JUST REALLY UNFORTUNATE THAT THE LEAGUE DID NOT DO ENOUGH TO TRY TO PRESERVE THE FRANCHISE AND TO --EVEN IF IT HAD TO ASSUME OWNERSHIP AND FLOAT IT UNTIL ANOTHER OWNER CAME ALONG, AND IT'S JUST THEIR LEGACY, THEIR HISTORY IS JUST KIND OF SUSPENDED POINT >> BUT WHAT DOES THAT TELL US, THE FACT THAT THIS TEAM ON THE COURT WAS SO DOMINANT, BUT THEN COULDN'T --IN THOSE EARLY YEARS, THEN COULDN'T SUSTAIN ITSELF, SO WHAT DOES THAT TELL US ABOUT HOW THESE TEAMS REVIEWED BY THE NBA SORT OF OVERALL?

>> AS I EXPLORE IN THE BOOK, A LOT IS ABOUT VALUE, WHAT DO WE VALUE AND WHAT COMMITMENTS ARE WE GOING TO MAKE?

WHAT DO WE THINK IN OUR SOCIETY IS WORTH PROTECTING?

AND I CAN LOOK THROUGH , UM, THE HISTORY AND SEE THAT IN MODERN NBA, TEAMS ARE STRUGGLING, TEAMS HAVE LOST MONEY, NONE HAVE FOLDED.

BUT FOR THE WOMEN'S TEAM, IT'S, OH, WE ARE NOT MAKING THE MONEY WE THOUGHT WE WOULD, INSTEAD OF MAKING AN ADJUSTMENT TO THE ORIGINAL BUSINESS PLAN, IT WAS EASIER JUST TO GET RID OF THE TEAMS.

AND SOMETIMES VERY CALLOUSLY.

I MEAN, IF A FOUR TIME CHAMPIONSHIP --FOUR STRAIGHT CHAMPIONS, FOUR IN A ROW, IF THAT IS NOT WORTH PROTECTING, THEN WHAT IS?

>> THERE ARE JUST SO MANY INTERESTING STRUCTURAL THINGS THAT YOU POINT OUT IN THE BOOK THAT I AM NOT SURE A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK ABOUT.

FOR EXAMPLE, THERE ARE A LOT OF GAY WOMEN IN THE LEAGUE, AND IT SEEMS AS THOUGH IT WAS NOT A RUSH TO PROMOTE THEM IN A WAY THAT THEY MIGHT --THEY MIGHT HAVE BEEN PROMOTED HAD THEY BEEN STRAIGHT.

WHEN DID THAT CHANGE OR HAS IT CHANGED?

>> IT IS CHANGING.

I DON'T THINK I WOULD CONSIDER IT CHANGED INTO THERE IS SOMEBODY LIKE OLIVIA MILES WHO JUST WON ROOKIE OF THE YEAR IS PROMOTED AS THE FACE OF THE LEAGUE, THE FACE THAT YOU SEE ON THE VIRAL COMMERCIALS WHEN YOU TURN ON WNBA LEAK PATHS, AND THE LEAGUE EVEN STRUGGLED TO PUT A'JA WILSON IN THAT POSITION, EVEN THOUGH SHE IS STRAIGHT AND IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH AN NBA PLAYER, SHE IS STILL A VERY TALL BLACK WOMAN, AND THE LEAGUE AND MARKETERS HAVE NOT -- AGAIN, HE GOES DOWN TO VALUE, HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO SEE THE BEAUTY AND THE MARKETABILITY IN THESE WOMEN, AND THE WOMEN THEMSELVES, THANKS TO SOCIAL MEDIA AND THEIR OWN PLATFORMS AND GETTING BETTER AGENTS WHO ARE ABLE TO PUT THEM FORWARD AND IN COMMERCIALS AND OTHER SPACES, UM, THEN PEOPLE KIND OF CATCH ON.

OH, YOU KNOW, IT IS MARKETABLE TO HAVE TWO PROFESSIONAL BASKETBALL PLAYERS IN A SECRET COMMERCIAL.

PAIGE BUECKERS AND A'JA WILSON, WHO BETTER TO ADVERTISE DEODORANT THAN PROFESSIONAL ATHLETES, AND THESE ARE THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN MISSING THAT HAVE NOT ALLOWED THESE WOMEN TO BE CULTURAL MAINSTREAM.

>> LET'S JUST TALK ABOUT CAITLIN CLARK FOR A MINUTE BECAUSE THIS HAS BECOME A HUGE THING THIS SEASON FOR LOTS OF REASONS POINT I MEAN, SHE IS A GREAT PLAYER, SHE IS CONSISTENT, AND MAKING THOSE THREE POINT SHOTS FROM HALF COURT, SUPER EXCITING.

>> OH, YEAH.

>> RIGHT?

ON THE OTHER HAND, SHE SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN , IN THE MINDS OF SOME, SORT OF PITTED AGAINST ANGEL REESE, WHO IS BLACK, WHO IS FROM BALTIMORE, AND THE TWO OF THEM SEEM TO HAVE SORT OF BEEN CAST AS KIND OF HERO AND VILLAIN.

YOU KNOW, NEITHER OF THEM ASKED FOR THIS.

IN FACT, CAITLIN CLARK HAS SAID MANY TIMES, I JUST WANT TO PLAY BASKETBALL, I DO NOT WANT TO PARTICIPATE IN THIS DISCOURSE.

AND ANGEL REESE , SIMILARLY, SHE SAYS I'M HERE TO PLAY, I'M HERE TO WIN, WHAT'S THE PROBLEM.

SO, WHO IS IT OR HOW IS IT THAT THIS IS SORT OF BEING PLACED ON THEM?

THAT'S A REALLY DOES START WITH THE MEDIA AND SPORTSWRITERS AND WHO IS IN THE NEWSROOMS AND WHO IS NOT, AND WHAT PERSPECTIVES ARE BEING PUSHED FORWARD.

IN WORKING ON THIS BOOK AND DOING RESEARCH, UM, I FOUND A STUDY WHERE THE 2020 SEASON WHEN SABRINA CAME INTO THE LEAGUE, THE NUMBER OF MENTIONS OF HER NAME VERSUS PEOPLE WHO WERE WINNING , HAD AWARDS, WHAT HAVE YOU, WHICH IS EXPONENTIALLY HIGHER, AND SO, WHEN YOU HAVE TWO GREAT PLAYERS COMING IN AND ONLY ONE IS GETTING THE SHINE, THEN THE FANS OF THE OTHER ARE, YOU KNOW, KIND OF TAKE ISSUE WITH IT, AND OF COURSE, ONLINE THERE IS THE DISCOURSE.

BUT MEDIA BIAS NOT ONLY IMPACTED INDIVIDUAL ATHLETES, INTEGRATED THE ENTIRE LEAGUE, BY NOT JUST SHOWCASING THE STORY LINES THAT ARE DEVELOPING FROM THE COURT, AND SHOWCASING THE PLAYERS WHO ARE DOING THE AMAZING THINGS, AND LETTING THAT DETERMINE THE NARRATIVE, RATHER THAN HAVING IT IMPOSED.

AND BECAUSE OF WHAT CAITLIN CLARK LOOKS LIKE AS A WHITE WOMAN, WHO PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, CAN RELATE TO, WE HAVE THE GREAT WHITE COAT WHERE PEOPLE WANT TO SEE A WHITE ATHLETE SUCCEED IN SPORTS THAT ARE DOMINATED BY BLACK PEOPLE, AND I FEEL LIKE A LOT OF PEOPLE PUT THAT PRESSURE ON TO HER, AND THAT IS NOT GOING TO ALLOW HER TO JUST PLAY, AND COMING INTO A LEAGUE LIKE THIS, I FEEL LIKE THE NEWER PLAYERS NEED TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THESE WOMEN HAVE BEEN THROUGH, ESPECIALLY THE ONES WHO HAVE BEEN IN THE LEAGUE A LONG TIME, AND HAVE RESPECT FOR THAT POSITION, EVEN WANT TO KNOW WHAT THEIR EXPERIENCES ARE, BECAUSE IT IS LOADED POINT >> SO, LET'S TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE THINGS THEY HAVE BEEN THROUGH, LIKE IN 2018, LAS VEGAS ACES PLAYERS POSTED PICTURES OF THEMSELVES ON AIRPORT AFTER MORE THAN 25 HOURS OF COMMERCIAL TRAVEL DELAYS BEFORE ULTIMATELY DECIDING THAT THEY WERE JUST TOO TIRED TO SAFELY PLAY THEIR NEXT GAME.

HOW DID LETTING THE PUBLIC KIND OF SEE THE BEHIND THE SCENES IMAGE OF THEIR LIVES CHANGE THINGS OR WHAT DID THAT OPEN UP?

>> THAT OPENED UP TWO THINGS, FIRST, IT CHANGED --OR JUST GAVE AN UNDERSTANDING FOR FANS OF THE LEAGUE WHAT THE WOMEN WERE GOING THROUGH.

AND THEN I THINK IT KIND OF CRACKED SOMETHING ON THE INSIDE WITH THE PLAYERS, BECAUSE THE PLAYERS, I INTERVIEWED MONIQUE CURRY, WAS WITH THE WASHINGTON MYSTICS AT THE TIME, AND SHE WAS LIKE THIS IS CRAZY, I CAN'T BELIEVE THAT THEY'RE CHOOSING NOT TO PLAY, BECAUSE THIS IS STUFF THAT WE HAVE BEEN DEALING WITH, AND WE THINK THEY SHOULD BASICALLY SUCK IT UP, AND YOU KNOW, SHOW UP AND PLAY THE GAME.

SO, IT KIND OF SHOWS A DIFFERENT MIND-SET IN THE DIFFERENT ERAS -- >> I'M SORRY, THE MEN WOULD HAVE HAD A CHARTERED FLIGHT.

>> THE MEN WOULD HAVE HAD A CHARTERED FLIGHT, AND I THINK THAT THE PLAYERS IN THE PAST, LIKE KIND OF GETTING UP TO THAT 2018 AREA, LACKED THE LEVERAGE TO DEMAND BETTER , AND THE LEAD WAS ALWAYS SAYING THAT IT WAS LOSING MONEY.

BUT PUTTING --PUTTING AN IMAGE TO IT, YOU KNOW, YOU SEE THE ERIN CLANAHAN BE LAYING ON AIRPORT CHAIRS AND OTHER PLAYERS ARE TAKING A STAND, AND BY CHOOSING NOT TO PLAY, THEY COUNTED THAT AS A LOSS, AND THEY DIDN'T MAKE THE PLAYOFFS BECAUSE OF THAT.

THEY NEEDED TO WIN THE LAST GAME OF THE SEASON AND DID NOT.

AND IF THEY PLAYED THAT GAME THAT THEY FORFEITED AND WON, THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN IN THE PLAYOFFS.

THERE WERE CONSEQUENCES FOR THE TEAM, BUT THEY COLLECTIVELY WERE SAYING THIS IS ENOUGH.

AND THE PLAYERS WHO HAVE BEEN IN THE LEAGUE A WHILE, FIRST, THEY WERE RESISTANT TO THE IDEA, BECAUSE THEY HAD JUST BEEN CONDITIONED TO PUT UP WITH THIS STUFF, BUT IT REALLY DID SPUR A CHANGE.

>> SO, TALK ABOUT TAKING A STAND, THE 2020 SEASON STANDS OUT, UM, BECAUSE AFTER THE KILLINGS OF BREONNA TAYLOR AND GEORGE FLOYD, THE ATLANTA DREAM PLAYERS PUBLICLY OPPOSED THEIR OWN CO-OWNER , THEN SENATOR -- UNITED STATES SENATOR, KELLY LOEFFLER, AFTER SHE CRITICIZED THE LEAGUE'S SUPPORT FOR BLACK LIVES MATTER, SO WHAT IS IT ABOUT THAT EPISODE THAT STANDS OUT?

>> FIRST OF ALL, THE SUCCESS OF THEIR ACTIVISM WAS VERY MUCH A RESULT OF THE MOMENT WHEN SOCIETY WAS THAT ANOTHER RECKONING POINT OVER RACE AND POLICE VIOLENCE.

I THINK IT WAS SUE BIRD WHO MADE THE SUGGESTION THAT WE CAN HELP FORCE HER OUT BY CAMPAIGNING FOR HER ARRIVAL IN THE SENATE RACE, SO SHE WAS UP FOR RE-ELECTION, AND A BUNCH OF PLAYERS LIKE ELIZABETH WILLIAMS, WAS A BIG PART OF THE PLAYERS UNION, SHE WANTED TO SIT DOWN WITH RAPHAEL WARNOCK, AND TO SEE IF HIS VALUES ALIGN WITH THEIRS BEFORE THEY'RE GOING TO THROW THEIR SUPPORT, AND HE MET WITH THEM, AND THE ATTENTION THEY GAVE HIS CAMPAIGN JUST TRANSFORMED HIS CAMPAIGN.

IT JUST SHOWS THE POWER THAT THIS LEAGUE HAS REPORTS PROGRESS WHEN PEOPLE REALLY WORK TOGETHER.

BUT WE CAN SEE HOW NOW WE HAVE A BACKLASH TO THAT, AND I FEEL LIKE IN THE 30th SEASON, A LOT OF THE STORY LINES THAT ARE COMING UP ARE RESULTING SPECIFICALLY FROM THAT POWER THAT WAS EXERTED, AND THEN NOW YOU ARE VISIBLE, WE ARE GOING TO ATTACK YOU, YOU KNOW?

>> ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS THAT HAS HAPPENED THIS SEASON AS THERE SEEMS TO BE THIS DEBATE ABOUT WHETHER TRANS WOMEN SHOULD OR SHOULD NOT PLAY IN THE WNBA.

TO MY KNOWLEDGE, THERE ARE NOT ANY TRANS WOMEN OR SELF IDENTIFIED TRANS WOMEN CURRENTLY IN THE WNBA.

BUT THE FACT IS, THIS IS A THING THAT HAS EMERGED.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IT'S ABOUT?

>> I THINK IT'S ABOUT ATTACKING A LEAGUE THAT HAS BEEN SOCIALLY PROGRESSIVE, AND NOW INCLUDES PLAYERS WHO MAYBE DON'T HAVE THOSE SAME VIEWS AND VALUES, SOPHIE CUNNINGHAM OF INDIANA FEVER, WHO KIND OF SAID SOMETHING ABOUT WANTING TO PROTECT THE LOCKER ROOMS FROM BIOLOGICAL MALES, WHICH IS A VERY --DOG WHISTLE FOR ANTI- TRANS BELIEFS.

AND IT'S NOT ANY CURRENT ISSUE THAT I KNOW OF ON ANY TEAM , OF ANY PLAYER.

>> WAS SHE TALKING ABOUT IN THE WNBA?

IN THE W, THE PROFESSIONAL LEAGUE, OR WAS SHE MAKING A GENERAL STATEMENT ABOUT GIRLS SPORTS AT THE LOWER LEVELS?

>> ON, ALL OF SPORTS AND AT THE LOWER LEVELS.

IT'S --YOU KNOW, THERE IS A MOVEMENT BANNING TRANS KIDS FROM PLAYING ON VARIOUS TEAMS, IT'S HAPPENING ALL OVER THE COUNTRY, AND IT'S REALLY --HER STATEMENT WAS KIND OF ALIGNED WITH THAT MOVEMENT AND WHAT THOSE VALUES AND AGENDAS ARE.

AND IT'S, YOU KNOW, KIND OF HIJACKING A BEAUTIFUL SEASON, 30th CELEBRATORY SEASON, TO INTERJECT THESE ISSUES THAT ARE NOT EVEN RELEVANT RIGHT NOW.

THERE HAS BEEN ONE TRANS PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE, SHE CAME OUT FIRST IS NON-BINARY, AND THEN TRANS, AND THEN TOWARDS THE END OF THEIR CAREER, UNDERWENT SURGERY AND IS LIVING A GREAT LIFE AND DOING ACTIVISM TO THIS DAY, BUT IT HAS EVEN BEEN A TOPIC IN THE LEAD THAT I AM AWARE OF, BUT THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THERE HAS BEEN A PLAYER WHO IS OUTSPOKEN ABOUT ISSUES KIND OF ON THE OPPOSITE SIDE OF, FOR EXAMPLE, WHERE THE LEAGUE WAS IN 2020, WHICH IS ALL ABOUT EQUALITY AND JUSTICE.

SO, THESE ARE THE KINDS OF INTERNAL CHALLENGES I FEEL THE LEAGUE NEEDS TO WORK OUT.

>> SO, WHERE DO YOU THINK THIS GOES NEXT, THE CURRENT COMMISSIONER KATHY IS RETIRING AT THE END OF THIS SEASON .

AS WE JUST POINTED OUT, THERE IS RECORD ATTENDANCE IN VIEWERSHIP, RAPID EXPANSION, RISING FRANCHISE VALUES.

THE GOLDEN STATE VALKYRIES, THE FIRST BILLION-DOLLAR TEAM, WOMEN'S TEAM, OKAY?

SO, THAT IS A WOW.

WHERE DO YOU THINK IT GOES NEXT?

>> I FEEL LIKE THE PLAYERS NEED TO HAVE A COMMON GOAL THAT THEY'RE GOING TO GALVANIZE AROUND.

SO, THE LEAGUE WAS ABLE TO SURVIVE BECAUSE PEOPLE WERE JUST LIKE, WE NEED TO KEEP THE LEAD HERE, WE NEED TO GROW, WE WILL DO WHATEVER WE CAN IN OUR COMMUNITIES, AND TO BUILD THIS THING UP.

NOW THAT THERE IS SO MUCH MONEY INVOLVED AND PLAYERS ARE KIND OF COMING IN WITH A KIND OF PRIVILEGE, BECAUSE, UM, THEY'RE GETTING MUCH MORE AIR TIME IN COLLEGE, AND MAYBE DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE HISTORY.

SOME OF THE PLAYERS NOW, THE STARS, WERE BORN WHEN THE LEAGUE STARTED.

[ INAUDIBLE ], PC 96, '97, THEY WERE BABIES.

AND SO, I FEEL THAT ESPECIALLY AROUND THESE DIVISIVE ISSUES THAT ARE KIND OF BEING IMPOSED ON THE LEAGUE, THE UNION AND THE PLAYERS NEED TO WORK WITH A NEW COMMISSIONER, TO KIND OF HAVE A HARD STANCE ON PRESERVING WHAT IT DEFINES AS, YOU KNOW, THE CULTURE OF THE WNBA, AND MAKING SURE THAT THAT MESSAGE IS IN THE WORLD, AND EVERYTHING THAT IT DOES TO HOPEFULLY TAMP DOWN SOME OF THESE, YOU KNOW, NEGATIVE STORY LINES THAT ARE CREEPING UP THIS SEASON.

>> TAMRYN SPRUILL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH ME.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME, IT'S BEEN A PLEASURE.

> >> AND FINALLY, A DISCOVERY THAT TRANSFORMED NEUROSCIENCE.

TURNS OUT THE NERVE CELLS IN YOUR BRAIN CAN BE SWITCHED ON AND OFF WITH LIGHT.

IT IS CALLED UP TO GENETICS, AND IT HAS EARNED SCIENTISTS CARL, PETER, AND GEORGIE THIS YEAR'S NOBEL PRIZE FOR PHYSIOLOGY OF MEDICINE.

THE TECHNIQUE WAS FIRST TESTED ON RATS, AND EVENTUALLY GAVE RESEARCHERS THE ABILITY TO CONTROL THE MOVEMENT OF THEIR WHISKERS, AND SINCE THEN, IT HAS LED TO MAJOR BREAKTHROUGHS FROM UNDERSTANDING HOW THE BRAIN GOVERNS THINGS LIKE PAIN AND SOCIAL BEHAVIORS TO HELPING THE VISUALLY IMPAIRED REGAIN PARTIAL SIGHT.

CONGRATULATIONS TO ALL OF THEM.

> >> AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT BUT IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP ON THIS SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.

ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM NEW YORK.

> >> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENTS, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW, THE SYLVIA A.

& SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM, THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION, THE PETER G. PETERSON & JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, KOO & PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU, THANK YOU.

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