Jeffrey Goldberg: Jensen Huang is out.

Pete Hegseth is not out.

Chuck Schumer could conceivably be out.

Howard Lutnick is mostly in, but could also be out, and Scott Colom is very much in.

Tonight, we'll discuss an event-filled week, but mainly what we'll do is talk about the life and legacy of one of the greats of our profession, the former moderator of this program, Gwen Ifill, who left us ten years ago this week, next.

Good evening, and welcome to Washington Week.

It's hard to believe, but Gwen Ifill, an icon of American journalism, died ten years ago, November 14th, 2016, at the much too young age of 61.

She was a friend, confidant, and adviser to me, and to so many people across journalism.

We'll talk about Gwen tonight, and her trailblazing role in journalism, and what she might make of today's Washington circus.

Before we do this, I'll talk about some of the news of the week with my guests, John Dickerson, contributing writer at The Atlantic and co-host of the Political Gabfest podcast.

Jonathan Karl is the chief Washington correspondent for ABC News.

And Michele Norris is a senior contributing editor for MS NOW.

Thank you all for being here, all of you friends and admirers of Gwen.

I appreciate you doing this on a sad occasion.

But I'm glad that we get to sit and talk for a little while.

Let's talk about the news.

We're not going to talk about the Friday the 13th ground stop, because it's developing as we speak, but it doesn't seem like a great day to fly.

John Dickerson, Contributing Writer, The Atlantic: Well, the whole week has been one fragile reminder of the membrane between the day as we go through it, and total collapse.

There's the FAA, the ground stop.

You had the Outlook -- Microsoft Outlook was down for two days.

People didn't know what to do.

And Jensen Huang, the head of the most important A.I.

company in the world, has a total and complete collapse, which means the center of the A.I.

economy is fibrillating.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Well, thanks for the buzzkill.

That was a reasonable summary of a week that probably should end.

I wanted to ask -- we'll get to Jensen Huang in a second.

I wanted to ask Michele about Pete Hegseth narrowly escapes impeachment, but this is something that is going to happen again, we think.

Michele Norris, Senior Contributing Editor, MS NOW: Yes, it will.

I mean, he did a lot of chest-pounding afterwards, and called it a stunt.

But he should be prepared for this to happen once the Democrats take over the House and the Senate.

He will definitely face impeachment again.

And, you know, the interesting thing that we have to remember is we're a nation at war.

And the SecDef, the head of the Department of Defense, I guess that he calls it, the Department of War, is facing impeachment.

I mean, normally when a country is at war, you're trying to build a case for what you're doing.

You're trying to bring along the American public, and this is happening.

You know, the impeachment is in the news, but the real news, I think, this week is what the people who are serving, the conditions that they're serving under.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right.

Michele Norris: You know, on these ships, that they don't have food.

There's mold on these ships.

They're learning that they're not sure when they're going to come back.

It's a larger problem than just impeachment.

Jeffrey Goldberg: But the larger sort of almost philosophical question is, are you at war when the president says you're not at war?

I mean, you've been following this closely.

Jonathan Karl, Chief Washington Correspondent, ABC News: Yes.

We've been through that many times.

But, look, first of all, on the impeachment, this was a deeply flawed eight articles of impeachment written by Thomas Massie, the one Republican that the Republicans in the House dislike more than any other.

So, it was easy for them to all vote against it.

But it was eight articles, including impeaching him for violating the War Powers Act by executing the war in Iran.

I mean, that might be a terrible thing, and that'd be something you might even want to try to impeach the president of the United States for -- Jeffrey Goldberg: But he's doing it on behalf of the president, right.

Jonathan Karl: Yes.

And the other thing, it didn't include some of the obvious things, such as all the firings of senior military officers, so many of them women, people of color, and, you know, fired for what?

None of that.

Michele Norris: Next time it will.

Jonathan Karl: The next one will.

The next -- so the members of the House were given a choice, vote up or down all these eight articles, some of which you might not like and didn't include your real, you know -- John Dickerson: And it's not just impeachment, it's hearings that will come in the next year, which is, did you or did you not tell the president about the number of missiles that were being burned through?

What was the actual evidence before this war was started about what Iran had?

Those are questions that are going to be uncomfortable for him.

Michele Norris: And what are the conditions of our bases overseas right now?

Jonathan Karl: And they voted to refer those articles of impeachment to the committee, which will now bury it because it's a Republican-held committee.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right.

Jonathan Karl: Well, guess what?

Next time it happens, it won't be a Republican -- Jeffrey Goldberg: But the clock will be set, say, in January.

Jensen Huang, surprised that the most indispensable CEO in tech turned out to be dispensable?

John Dickerson: Well, we'll see if he's dispensable or not, and you look at the stock price -- Jeffrey Goldberg: Well, the board of his company believed that it had no choice.

John Dickerson: But the -- and the stock market thinks he was indispensable if you look at what's happened to the number.

I mean, what it reminds us is that human beings are at the center of these companies, and those companies are being handed extraordinary power over the future of A.I., which will affect all of our lives.

And perhaps this should be a lesson that that maybe you want to have not just a single point of failure when it comes to A.I., which will have all these ramifications.

So, people who have asked either to slow A.I.

down or have some sort of extra process for managing the gallop that this might remind them that single people are fallible.

Jeffrey Goldberg: This has become a mess for the White House, not only for the commerce secretary, but -- Jonathan Karl: For the president of the United States.

I mean, I mean, you have to -- the way it's been described to me, the president's trip to China, where he leaves Washington on Air Force One and realizes that Jensen Huang is not on the manifest for his trip to China.

And he gets briefed by, we understand, Secretary of State Marco Rubio, because there are suspicions that he may be sleeping with a Chinese spy.

And the president wants him on this trip.

So, he calls Jensen Huang from Air Force One and says, can you meet us in Alaska, where we're going to be refueling Air Force One?

And it's -- I mean, I'm told it was very close whether or not he could scramble.

And, by the way, he's the head of one of the most important companies in the world, and he drops everything to fire up his -- Jeffrey Goldberg: Maybe Trump just wanted to keep an eye on him based on his, yes, extracurriculars.

Jonathan Karl: I mean, the president's at the middle of this, and, of course, the real pressure right now, the first pressure point's going to be the commerce secretary.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right.

Quickly, Chuck Schumer, Hakeem Jeffries, big week coming up for them.

Quickly, they have -- are there any real, foreseeable threats to their rise to leadership in their respective houses?

John Dickerson: Maybe, Jonathan.

Senator Chris Van Hollen of Maryland is going to try and challenge Chuck Schumer.

I don't know how far that will go.

Their biggest challenge is being leaders of a big, big, big complicated coalition now.

That's what happens when you win.

People -- I mean, this is natural, but it's a tough leadership challenge.

Michele Norris: And a progressive wing that is coming in and feeling themselves.

I mean, they really -- and even if they don't challenge Hakeem Jeffries, they will make sure that they are going to be heard.

And that's part of the challenge.

Jeffrey Goldberg: The interesting thing about that, going to what John has said, is that the Democratic caucus is so big that the power of that progressive wing is actually a little bit diluted.

Or am I misreading this?

Jonathan Karl: No, you know, you're exactly right.

This isn't like the Freedom Caucus that would constantly give Kevin McCarthy or Mike Johnson problems because the margin was so narrow that a couple of guys in the Freedom Caucus could derail a piece of legislation.

There aren't enough progressives to derail a piece of legislation.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Is Chuck Schumer in trouble?

Jonathan Karl: I don't think he is.

But, look, Van Hollen is mounting a really serious and, I think, quite personal campaign against Chuck Schumer, challenging his integrity, essentially for, you know, where his sources of money come from, his positions on Israel, his association with AIPAC.

I mean, it's a pretty brutal campaign.

This isn't a nice, hey, we, you know, we just have some disagreements on policy.

This is a tough challenge.

I think it will fail.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Hakeem Jeffries, smoother, smoother sailing, we think?

Michele Norris: And also, he has history behind him.

I mean, there is a certain amount of enthusiasm on top of his leadership style, because he would be the first African American.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Yes.

Jonathan Karl: There's no opposition within the House Democratic caucus, but there is in the base that think that he is not tough enough.

Jeffrey Goldberg: There is this amazing quality to the rush of news these days where we don't even pause as much as we should to say, oh, my goodness, the House of Representatives is going to have a Black speaker of the House.

Another thing worth noting is that a big winner of this weird week is Scott Colom, Mississippi Democrat, first Black representative - - first Black senator from Mississippi in 150 years.

You're an expert on this subject, John.

I know.

He was giving me the his -- Jonathan Karl: Just Blanch Kelso Bruce.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Yes, he was giving me the history before.

Jonathan Karl: Fascinating guy.

Jeffrey Goldberg: But Michele, talk about that, and actually it's an interesting way to talk about Gwen in a way, because Gwen -- one of her many -- one of her many subspecialties was tracking the, and reporting on the rise of a new generation of African American politicians.

She would be absolutely fascinated by the idea that Mississippi of all places is sending a Black Democrat to the Senate.

Michele Norris: Did you all miss her this week?

Jeffrey Goldberg: Yes.

Michele Norris: What are you thinking about her this week?

Jeffrey Goldberg: Yes.

Michele Norris: I don't think (INAUDIBLE) that, you know, on Tuesday night.

Jeffrey Goldberg: We -- John Dickerson: We could say this week or -- Michele Norris: I miss her all the time.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Whenever you think of her, you kind of, yes.

Michele Norris: Just, you know, the texts that would've been flying, the conversations.

She would've loved this.

And you're right, she would've spotted, she was a tremendous spotter of early talent.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Yes.

Michele Norris: She was always looking down the road at, you know, who was, that was, her book was all about that.

Just one word before we talk about Gwen and that though was with Scott Colom.

He said something interesting about the leadership in the leadership race here in Washington.

Both Schumer and Hakeem come from the same borough, you know?

I mean, so there -- you know, and as a Southerner he's saying, you know, maybe we need to think about having that kind of talent.

Jonathan Karl: At least get somebody from Staten Island.

Michele Norris: Can we at least get -- you know, can we talk about diversity of that kind also?

Jeffrey Goldberg: I'm not sure I like this subtle prejudice against the five boroughs.

Michele Norris: Well, we're talking a single borough, but the idea that he did this, now, yes, he was running against a weak candidate, and he was running in an unusual year where people were concerned about affordability and corruption and the chaos that we've been talking about, but he also just ran a really tight campaign.

And he went and campaigned in places that other people have not campaigned in.

He went to every corner of that state.

His wife was in a food truck, and she was traveling all over the state.

His father is a Republican, and so he had a leg up in going to some of the places that Democrats have ignored.

He himself is a gun owner, believes in gun rights to a certain extent.

He's a former prosecutor.

John Dickerson: Prosecutor, yes.

Michele Norris: And so I think it is a message about the limits of our imagination as journalists, but for the party, you know, to think about where these possibilities exist, because the party didn't see this happening.

There are very few people who thought that he had a path to victory.

Jeffrey Goldberg: You know, that's -- and I want to pivot, but the amazing thing is Texas was surprising.

Kansas is really surprising.

Mississippi is another level.

And that just shows how -- what a dramatic race this was.

John Dickerson: You can imagine Gwen asking, was the Supreme Court right when they said the Voting Rights Act didn't -- wasn't necessary anymore because the South had changed.

And, you know, Colom's election maybe showed that.

I think the answer from perhaps even Gwen would be, you can have progress without necessarily getting rid of or thinking that had that what is gone are all the efforts to try to stop progress.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right, and see the Obama presidency.

John Dickerson: Well, exactly.

Hiram Revels, just to do one, the very first Black senator from Mississippi.

Jonathan Karl: Blanch Kelso Bruce's predecessor.

Michele Norris: Yes.

John Dickerson: When he came to Washington, his opponent said -- when he came to Washington, his opponent said, you're not a citizen.

You shouldn't be a senator.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right.

John Dickerson: Draw that line right to the current sitting president of the United States who attacked Barack Obama for not being a citizen.

We're not that far from that history.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right.

Michele Norris: And many of the people who voted -- Jonathan Karl: But I did bring a $10 note that's signed by Blanch Kelso Bruce.

Michele Norris: And he's buried here in Washington D.C.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Yes.

For some reason, I feel like we're on a reconstruction quiz bowl.

(CROSSTALKS) John Dickerson: Gwen didn't allow show and tell.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Yes, no, there was no show and tell.

Yes.

We're going to -- I would have seized control of this table.

Michele Norris: Can I say one thing about Mississippi, though?

Can I -- it was provident that it happened on Veterans Day, because the veterans played such a role in pushing this country forward in the Civil Rights Movement, Medgar Evers included.

And we should just note that this is not ancient history, that some of the people who voted for Scott Colom remembered having to pass a poll test, remembered what it was like, you know, when that hill was so much steeper.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Let us bring our viewers to Gwen.

I just want you to watch this watch this brief compilation of Gwen in many different settings.

Gwen Ifill: I've been overwhelmed by the good wishes sent my way as I move to the head of our little table here at Washington Week.

Welcome to the first and the only 2008 vice presidential debate.

Good evening and welcome to Elkhart, Indiana, as we sit down with President Obama.

I'm here in St.

Petersburg, Florida.

We are here in post-debate Milwaukee.

Hello and welcome to Philadelphia.

Join us every Friday night.

We'll always have a lot to say, and we'll always want to hear what you have to say as well.

Jeffrey Goldberg: One thing we didn't have there, Michele, was Gwen with a broken ankle still doing national debates.

Michele Norris: Yes.

Jeffrey Goldberg: But give us the framing here.

I mean, you were very, very close to Gwen.

What did she bring to national journalism that we didn't really have before her rise?

Michele Norris: Well, it's easy to say that, you know, she was an African American woman, so she brought a level of diversity into every room that she entered, but she was our standard-bearer, and she had this... She was a compass.

She was a walking exclamation point and a walking compass.

She was the, the person who would call you, and I think all of us have received those calls, Step away from the keyboard.

She was the person who pushed you to find your best self as journalists.

And she cared about journalism.

She cared about the craft of journalism.

She called it a craft, and she was a defender of journalism, and she was also a cultivator.

One of the things that I always appreciated is that she was always working with young people.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Yes.

Michele Norris: She made time.

There are a number of people who see themselves as mentees and acolytes.

And if you traveled with her, as I often did, people would not approach her as a celebrity.

They would approach her as a friend.

And so for people who watched the show every night, for people who saw her on PBS, or people who saw her on campaigns and in debates, she had something magical about her that she connected with people.

She was tough, but she was not a scold.

She was a standard-bearer, but she was not like Tracy Flick.

She wasn't like wagging a finger at anyone.

She was beckoning you to find your best self.

Jeffrey Goldberg: I want you to watch with me a moment from Gwen's funeral.

This is John Dickerson giving a eulogy at the funeral.

John Dickerson: I'm not going to say it in church, but there's a very specific word for what Gwen could detect.

It is our greatest local crop in Washington.

Jeffrey Goldberg: John, talk about that quality of Gwen just not brooking any nonsense.

John Dickerson: Including from those of us at the table.

I mean, when you have those -- Jeffrey Goldberg: Well, or especially.

John Dickerson: Or especially, yes.

Well, I mean, what I remember, it happened many different times on the campaign trail or at some administration gaggle with some official.

You know, there's a little bit of footsie that happens at the beginning of that, some joking around or whatever, and Gwen had very little patience for that.

You were there to do business, and often she would ask a question that not only punctured that little moment and got to the business of why we were there, but sort of reframed and made more serious that exchange with the administration official.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right.

I want you guys to watch one other moment, a very famous moment from Gwen's life.

This is in 2004 when she's doing the vice presidential debate, and it's Dick Cheney and John Edwards.

And she asks what has become a very, very famous question, the sort of question that had not been asked in previous debates.

Watch this with me, because I want to talk about this.

Gwen Ifill: But I want to talk to you about AIDS, and not about AIDS in China or Africa, but AIDS right here in this country, where Black women between the ages of 25 and 44 are 13 times more likely to die of the disease than their counterparts.

What should the government's role be in helping to end the growth of this epidemic?

Let me turn this on its head, because when we talk about race in this country, we always talk about African Americans, people of color.

I want to talk to you about white people, okay?

I know.

Jeffrey Goldberg: That was a moment in 2016 when Gwen I think was winking at all of us and saying, you know what?

I'm going to make Bernie Sanders a little bit uncomfortable for a minute.

Michele Norris: Yes.

And you tried to diffuse it with humor, and she like plowed right ahead with that question.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Yes.

No.

Talk about that, that moment.

That was an interesting example -- this is a question for both of you -- interesting example of diversity in the truest sub- most substantive sense.

It's like bringing people with different backgrounds, different experiences, they're going to have different kinds of questions.

Michele Norris: I love that you included both of them, because in the first -- you know that Dick Cheney and John Edwards were briefed to the high heavens, and they were not ready for that question.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right.

Michele Norris: There was no way that they were ready for that question.

And so she was bringing people along with her.

She was bringing Black women into that debate along with her and saying, you deserve to be a part of this conversation.

On the other hand, she was also saying, you know, when we talk about race, white Americans too often get to be spectators.

And so if we're actually going to talk about race, let's have a full conversation.

Let's make sure, and I, neither Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders were probably prepared for that question either.

John Dickerson: Gwen had a worldview, and that worldview was not swayed or affected by the shiny thing of the moment or the hot take of the moment, and that is what we all admired, is that set of standards.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Yes.

And talk about standards, Jon.

Jonathan Karl: I mean, look she would ask the relevant question, the pointed question, and persistently insist on getting an answer, but she did it in a way that wasn't like unnecessarily adversarial.

I mean, you still really liked Gwen Ifill, I think, even when she was asking you, you know -- Jeffrey Goldberg: Well, the smile was incredibly famous and incandescent.

But there was no nonsense involved.

Jonathan Karl: No nonsense at all.

Jeffrey Goldberg: What lesson do you - - when you look at her career and the way she -- the way she led herself in public, what lesson do you as someone in the business take from the way she did things?

Jonathan Karl: You know, first of all, I first got to know her in 1999, 1998, 1999, when I was covering the impeachment of Bill Clinton, and so was she for the Today Show.

And I had to be the -- I was there.

It's my life up on Capitol Hill during those months, and so did Gwen.

I never saw anybody more hardworking.

I often had the second car in the little parking area on East Capitol Street where journalists could park back then.

The first car was Gwen's.

Or I would have the first, she would have the second.

We were always the first to arrive.

And I got to -- and we were covering this historic event.

And I just -- those moments in the morning getting her kind of like cutting through the B.S., yes, this is a big historic moment, and it's also like what are we really doing here?

Michele Norris: You know, the thing I think about is the word anchor.

We use that word all the time, but we forget what it really means.

It keeps you on track.

It's that thing that actually keeps you on track.

And, you know, a lot of anchors don't necessarily do that.

We're glad that you do but lots of them don't.

And she did that.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Well, I think Gwen would think I tell too many jokes on this show.

John Dickerson: Well, she would have.

Jeffrey Goldberg: She would.

No, I hear her.

Believe me, I hear her.

John Dickerson: As quick a laugh as Gwen had and that gorgeous smile, when you -- if one cracked a joke at the table, she would not smile.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Oh, I remember.

John Dickerson: Because she didn't believe that that was the role or that her viewers -- you know, that was not -- that she -- it was very hard.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Oh, no.

I would make twice the number of jokes if I didn't have Gwen in my head right now.

John Dickerson: The first person in my life, it's a grace to work with somebody who makes you want to be so much better than you can be, who lifts your game, and she was the first I experienced that with.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Speaking of jokes, Gwen was also an international icon.

She was a celebrity.

She managed it well.

But I want you to watch these couple of moments.

The first is from Queen Latifah.

And the second is from Will Ferrell when he's getting the Mark Twain Prize a number of years ago.

Queen Latifah: Good evening, I'm Gwen Ifill.

Welcome to Washington University in St.

Louis, Missouri, to the first and only 2008 vice presidential debate.

Will Ferrell: I mean, tonight, if I -- after the show, if I want to go on a bender with Gwen Ifill, and buy a couple spear guns and try to scale the Washington Monument, I'm going to do it, okay?

Michele Norris: I don't know that she would do all of it, but she might have a sip of brown liquor with him at the end of the night.

She loved the Queen Latifah bit, and it actually came at a moment that really, she had broken her ankle.

And so when she did that debate, she was hobbling on one foot, and she was really -- she did it without any painkillers because she wanted to be totally present.

So, when that happened, it was really something that was very special to her.

And the thing that, that you didn't show, though, the thing that really got to her, is when little girls would come to the door on Halloween, because she was big on Halloween, she loved kids, and they would come to the door dressed as Gwen Ifill.

And so as much as she loved Queen Latifah, she loved that she was having this effect on the next generation.

Jeffrey Goldberg: That's an amazing story.

Well, she was she was singular.

We all know that.

And I think I speak for this panel when I say that we all miss her very much.

I'm sure you at home also miss her very much.

We are going to have to leave it there.

I'm glad that we had the time to talk about Gwen Ifill and her legacy.

She won't be forgotten.

We loved her here, we loved her everywhere, and we all miss her very, very much.

I want to thank our guests for joining me for this very, very moving conversation.

I want to thank you at home for watching us.

I'm Jeffrey Goldberg borrowing Gwen Ifill's seat, good night from Washington.